A dark day for civilisation

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 22 Jul 2022 11:01:43 GMT

[quote userid="14080" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/238250#238250"]And it is creeping over here too. Government has removed womens rights to bodily autonomy and sexual and reproductive rights from a joint statement it organised.[/quote]

Daniella, do you know what the significance of that is? Must admit, I had not before heard of FoRB, so not sure if this is a precursor of worse to come.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Ex Member — Fri, 22 Jul 2022 09:21:18 GMT

And it is creeping over here too. Government has removed womens rights to bodily autonomy and sexual and reproductive rights from a joint statement it organised.

This article about it is behind a paywall https://inews.co.uk/news/government-removes-commitment-women-abortion-rights-summit-freedom-beliefs-1750246

This one isn’t and links to the amended and unamended statements https://humanists.uk/2022/07/19/abortion-deleted-from-uk-government-organised-international-human-rights-statement/

22 signatories dropped to 6 post amendment. UK is one of them.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 08 Jul 2022 20:17:18 GMT

Interesting move by Joe Biden today. Firstly he signed an executive order, the second is more interesting in that he has asked the American electorate to give him a few more Democrat Senators at the mid terms so that he has a majority to alter the law. (Buried in what really was a very packed day of news)

Neil

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 06 Jul 2022 20:55:35 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237929#237929"]The major hospital for my area is an hour and a half away, a round trip could take 3 hours. It's intrusive on time, but I really don't see how the journey adds trauma to the poor lass. I've never found it less traumatic visiting the smaller hospital 50 mins away. Do we have any evidence that a closer abortion is in anyway better or less traumatic? America is a big place, I imagine some people have a fair journey to access such services - as we do in rural areas of the UK.[/quote]

You may feel differently about your own journey if it involved driving past half a dozen fully functional large hospitals who refuse to look after you because they feel you shouldn't receive your treatment at all?

Nobody minds travelling to receive medical care if it is necessary to do so. But should we have to travel abroad because the health system in our own country (and it's worth remembering that 11 American States are bigger than Britain, with 31 bigger than England) completely refuse to treat you?

RE: A dark day for civilisation

jajotiand — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 18:19:50 GMT

youhave to look at the bigger picture.Nooneis interested in whether kids live or die, see how they deal with them inmany other respects. It is very simply another measure to create separation, anxiety, anger amongst the different kind of peopleof the country, to create upheaval and to prevent unity.

Time to watch some independant news folks

www.ukcolumn.org

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 17:31:23 GMT

[quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237945#237945"]

Also-this thing about it just being a bunch of cells (I think that was Arlo Guthrie):

most (not all) women would tell you that having a miscarriage before 22/23 weeks isn’t just kicking out a bunch of cells. Again, there is an emotional turmoil that goes with it (grief, guilt etc).

[/quote]

Hi Nicola Cole - I do appreciate that to the mother, psychologically, the foetus is much more than a bunch of cells. That of course is a reason why in many, even most cases, abortion is very difficult for the woman. My point though is that the foetus is nevertheless, in the early stages, just a bunch of cells, and therefore there is no reason at that stage not to abort a pregnancy where the welfare of the mother or the baby to be is compromised.

[quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237945#237945"]But surely that’s exactly why no-one else but the woman involved should be making such a life changing decision regarding abortion-because other people do not get it![/quote]

I agree whole heartedly with the first bit, but not sure I agree with your rationale that it's because other people don't get it. It's not rocket science!

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 15:57:09 GMT

Like David, I am (I presume) too late to the party to comment on the earlier parts of the thread, but not being a frequent Vetsurgeon attendee nowadays, I'm going to do it anyway

FWIW, I do think this has been a decision that is demonstrative of the ideologies of the Justices involved, but I would say more of their political ideologies than their religious leanings (though the two can be closely intertwined, especially in the US) - there seems to have been a flurry of decisions all in the same week that are focused more on "federal overreach" and "returning decisions to the states" of which the reversal of Roe v Wade was only one. The political neutrality of SCOTUS seems to be an illusion that is fast disappearing in the rear view mirror.

Arguably, Trump shouldn't have been able to nominate/ place both Gorsuch and Coney-Barrett in the supreme court - Mitch McConnell having refused to schedule a hearing for Merrick Garland, as Obama's nominee, as the time between Feb 2016 and January 2017 was deemed "too close" to the end of Obama's term to confirm Garland, but there was somehow plenty of time between September 2020 and January 2021 to confirm Coney-Barrett's nomination...but then, the Mitch McConnell has always been better at manipulating the rules playing the game for the Republicans than the Democrats seem to be.

All that aside, I do think it's very disingenuous for anyone to simply state that "the decision has been returned to the states, as it should be" and pretend that it's not going to be a wide-reaching ban on abortion, when the number of trigger laws poised to go into effect has been well known for years, decades even, and that effectively a good half of the states would ban abortion as soon as they were no longer constrained by Roe v Wade. Returning the power to the states is not returning it to the people any more than a federal decision was in the first place - at least, being based on privacy, Roe v Wade argued that the decision was between the patient and their healthcare provider. To my mind, that's where it should begin and end - if that means "abortion on demand" then so be it - the person carrying the pregnancy needs to be trusted to make the decision themselves, as it is there body that will have to go through with said pregnancy.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 14:40:16 GMT

[quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237945#237945"]by travelling[/quote]

and this shows how far you need to travel

dataviz.nbcnews.com/.../

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Cinzia Gandini — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 14:33:49 GMT

[quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237945#237945"]all sorts of emotions[/quote]

quote from the Guardian "The Missouri law, which provides no exception for rape or incest, classifies the act of inducing an abortion as a class B felony, meaning it could result in a five- to 15-year prison sentence."

www.theguardian.com/.../what-states-have-abortion-trigger-laws

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Nicola Cole — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 14:13:01 GMT

You’re completely missing the point.

There is much more to this than whether someone can physically get an abortion by travelling. The emotional repercussions for many women following abortion is massive (and before for that matter). The guilt, the grieving, the indecision-the brain and heart-wracking ‘are they doing the right thing’, the feeing of helplessness and loss, all sorts of emotions. Some may not feel so strongly, but for many it is an intensely emotional thing.

If you live somewhere where it is illegal that is the state condemning you for your choice, ‘how can you kill a living thing’ etc etc. Imagine how that feeds in to the above emotions. So even if a woman can travel to get one, it doesn’t alter the emotions and the ‘pressure’ of society telling them what they are doing is wrong, abhorrent etc. (and that will be present whether it is a secret abortion or not-the women experiencing it still knows it’s illegal where they live).

For the above case about the 10 year old rape victim. Rape/sexual abuse victims go through another massive set of emotions after the ordeal. One of the big ones being that they can feel that they are somehow to blame. They need massive amounts of support. Try adding in ‘you’re killing an unborn child and we won’t support you’ to that.

Also-this thing about it just being a bunch of cells (I think that was Arlo Guthrie):

most (not all) women would tell you that having a miscarriage before 22/23 weeks isn’t just kicking out a bunch of cells. Again, there is an emotional turmoil that goes with it (grief, guilt etc).

Michael Woodhouse

If you don’t get it from that explanation then you simply don’t get it. Lots of people probably don’t.
But surely that’s exactly why no-one else but the woman involved should be making such a life changing decision regarding abortion-because other people do not get it!

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Nicola Cole — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 13:45:33 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237925#237925"]It’s illegal so I assume nobody could possibly know[/quote]

She would know

RE: A dark day for civilisation

cairncross — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 07:35:09 GMT

In our kids school a masochistic men only organisation are given access each year to talk to the kids and hand out their literature . The Gideons society is named after their hero from the bible a mass murdering genocidal maniac whom God rewarded for these actions with a harem of sex slaves . . This is a mainstream state school . This is normalised behavior , my complaint to the school meets an embarrassed smirk as if I am the nutcase here , after all these men have neat suits and a polished professional authoritive persona.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

cairncross — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 07:08:34 GMT

The major hospital in your area will help you. If it didn't you could go to your political rep except here the hospital won't the political rep will call the police . If something terrible happens to u and all the representatives of authority in your life school police politicians and judiciary are likely to punish you if you speak out , the journey time is not the problem its the psychological boundary formed by the physical borderline. This is compounded by the fact that the majority in authority will be men and will be members of the same masochistic cult which indoctrinates a belief that their theology trumps all. This is a real problem because the indoctrination and belief is used to justify all sorts of terrible actions

In NI we live with this and going to authority requires considerable care , there are good reps, police community figures etc out there who take their own risks but there are still those with links to more nepharious local organisations .

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 06:39:32 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237918#237918"]

Whilst I agree it's awful, I'm not sure a 3-hour drive for an abortion is the worst thing that has happened to the poor lass recently.

Importantly, she still has access to a safe abortion, just with some travelling.

[/quote]

She still had access to a safe abortion, for now. In a few more weeks, I believe that abortion she received in Indiana will no longer be available when their own trigger laws go into effect. There are already areas where people have to travel several states away. Sure, for the comfortably-off that might not be a big deal (though insurance coverage for abortion has also been severely limited, so the financial cost will be a limiting factor for more and more people) but for poorer people it's a significant barrier. Increasing numbers seeking care for fewer providers will put pressure on them. And several of the more "gung-ho" red state legislators have made alarming noises about prosecuting those who travel.

It's a little disingenuous to assume we're just adding an obligation to travel to the situation.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Cinzia Gandini — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 23:05:21 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237929#237929"]At best, your 'further trauma' theory is nothing more than conjecture[/quote]

...for men probably

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Ex Member — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 22:49:28 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237929#237929"]At best, your 'further trauma' theory is nothing more than conjecture[/quote]

Survivors of sexual assault and rape will tell you what further trauma means. When after the event you have to go to extraordinary lengths to be believed/supported/get healthcare. It should not be made harder to get these things.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 22:38:37 GMT

[quote userid="14080" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237921#237921"]

10 year old girl traumatised by rape, further traumatised by having to travel 3 hours to a place she doesn’t know for a medical procedure she should never have needed in the first place.

This isn’t about whether the situation “could be much worse” or not. This child should not be forced to undergo any further trauma than what she has already had to go through

[/quote]

The major hospital for my area is an hour and a half away, a round trip could take 3 hours. It's intrusive on time, but I really don't see how the journey adds trauma to the poor lass. I've never found it less traumatic visiting the smaller hospital 50 mins away. Do we have any evidence that a closer abortion is in anyway better or less traumatic? America is a big place, I imagine some people have a fair journey to access such services - as we do in rural areas of the UK.

At best, your 'further trauma' theory is nothing more than conjecture. I'd rather we concentrated on the rapists, the school shooters etc

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Cinzia Gandini — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 18:01:35 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237924#237924"]and still presumably[/quote]

It’s illegal so I assume nobody could possibly know

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 16:49:28 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237922#237922"]At this point best in a different state, can you imagine in the same state? Maybe making feel her ashamed, guilty almost a criminal? No best out of that[/quote]

hadn't thought of that, good point. That said, she would still be returning home after a termination in a different state, and still presumably be made to feel ashamed etc.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Cinzia Gandini — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 13:17:34 GMT

At this point best in a different state, can you imagine in the same state? Maybe making feel her ashamed, guilty almost a criminal? No best out of that

[quote userid="14080" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237921#237921"]to a place she doesn’t know [/quote]

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Ex Member — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 12:09:57 GMT

10 year old girl traumatised by rape, further traumatised by having to travel 3 hours to a place she doesn’t know for a medical procedure she should never have needed in the first place.

This isn’t about whether the situation “could be much worse” or not. This child should not be forced to undergo any further trauma than what she has already had to go through. Sexual assault and rape are some of the most traumatic things a person can go through, let alone a child. There is no silver lining here however hard we look, just more trauma piled on more trauma.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Cinzia Gandini — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 10:13:26 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237918#237918"]3-hour drive for an abortion[/quote]

yes I totally agree, but the part of society that is not wealthy will be mostly affected, you need to arrange things far away and maybe spend some days in a different state, that's not for everyone. The girls that are not sharing with adults will be affected. I think it's more complicated than a 3 hours drive

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 10:07:33 GMT

[quote userid="4103" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237912#237912"]I think there's a case going on of a 10 year old girl who's been raped and they denied abortion[/quote]

Whilst I agree it's awful, I'm not sure a 3-hour drive for an abortion is the worst thing that has happened to the poor lass recently.

Importantly, she still has access to a safe abortion, just with some travelling.

I think this situation could be much worse.

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Cinzia Gandini — Sun, 03 Jul 2022 22:57:12 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30335/a-dark-day-for-civilisation/237916#237916"]hard to recognise the US[/quote]

this could be part of what you just mentioned, manipulation and propaganda built in years to make you spontaneously say what you've just said...

RE: A dark day for civilisation

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 03 Jul 2022 22:32:58 GMT

Correct. I guess you can always argue about newspapers editorials and truthfulness. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/03/ohio-indiana-abortion-rape-victim

But if this is as I read it, it becomes ever so hard to recognise the US as the morally superior and to follow its guidance in the international theatre. Is this what they have in mind when they coined 'race to the bottom '?