RCVS or alternative body?

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Jun 2022 08:37:13 GMT

So why not say so?

Item XX is confidential at this stage because negotiations are ongoing. Better still state what is ongoing!

This is transparency.

YY is to be marked confidential as a result of GDPR. Better still some idea of what is subject to GDPR.

Transparency.

There should be enough disclosed under most circumstances for a member to request more information or receive a more detailed explanation why it is not possible to provide it.

It can be done better!

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 24 Jun 2022 07:36:42 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30330/rcvs-or-alternative-body/237747#237747"]On point 3 if something is commercial ly sensitive surely that person making it shouldn't be in the conversation or decision making process?[/quote]

cairncross Commercially sensitive doesn't mean that the someone in the room has a vested interest. For example, it could be that Council needs to discuss the offer price of the new office they are bidding on, and clearly don't want the vendor to know. Or it could be something to do with regulation change where some relevant, but commercially sensitive information from a third party is being discussed.

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

cairncross — Thu, 23 Jun 2022 18:47:45 GMT

On point 3 if something is commercial ly sensitive surely that person making it shouldn't be in the conversation or decision making process? Not for their own benefit but for conflict of interest reasons. They can make generalisations on how industry might be affected but not specifically argue about or for their own self interests

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 23 Jun 2022 09:52:06 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30330/rcvs-or-alternative-body/237740#237740"]Odd that the rationale does not include any mention of the members paying for membership.[/quote]

Really - in this context, I would have thought it odd if it did.

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30330/rcvs-or-alternative-body/237740#237740"]There are plenty of reasons for confidentiality but this smacks of secrecy because they can.[/quote]

I don't think that.

I mean, if you go through the rationales.

GDPR ... on the face of it, fair enough. The problem is that I've lost count of the number of times people slap the GDPR label on things without the faintest understanding of the GDPR rules. And without a good understanding, people tend to have a very, very conservative view of what GDPR actually means.

That, I think, is the biggest risk with this one: "It names someone, quick, we'd better label it GDPR"

Maintaining public confidence. As I say, so, so, so subjective. Who decides what is going to erode public confidence, and how do they know?

Maintaining the confidence of another organisation. I take that to mean maintaining another org's secret info, and that is a larger count than I would have expected.

Commercially sensitive. Again, on the face of it, fair enough, except I wonder how many discussions fall under the umbrella of commercially sensitive, when they are not. For example, I don't know (going to check) whether all the Estate Strategy stuff was all labelled confidential, or just the actual bits relating to the transactions.

Time to consider. Again, seems fair enough, provided the info is declassified once council has had time to consider. I am not sure if that is the case.

I was told by the College that when an item is marked confidential, it is challenged to make sure it really has to be. But challenged by who? How robustly challenged?

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Jun 2022 11:36:41 GMT

Odd that the rationale does not include any mention of the members paying for membership. We seem to be the only ones that are not getting a look in.

There are plenty of reasons for confidentiality but this smacks of secrecy because they can.

As members we ought to have an opportunity to contact and influence decision making. If matters 'awaiting' time to consider are secret we cannot have any influence.

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:15:24 GMT

So, here we go, Top of the Confidentiality Pops:

Since Sept 2020, I count 124 items having been marked 'Confidential'

In at 5th place, we have the old favourite, GDPR, with 19 items.

In fourth, maintaining public confidence, 39 times.

In third, to maintain the confidence of another org: 66 times.

In second, commercially sensitive: 70 times

And in first place, to allow council time to consider: 96 times.

Oh, and there were 24 items marked confidential without a rationale.

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:02:51 GMT

[quote userid="20100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30330/rcvs-or-alternative-body/237710#237710"]Maybe we should all write to the home secretary to disband the entire council. A fresh restructuring is our only way out of this shenanigans. Think about it.[/quote]

That seems a little extreme. And careful what you wish for.

[quote userid="2675" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30330/rcvs-or-alternative-body/237695#237695"]I don’t really swallow the idea that these are confidential because of potential legal reasons- the people on council are accountable and don’t have anonymity privileges.[/quote]

The rationales given by the RCVS for confidentiality are as follows (any or all may apply in a given situation)

To allow the Committee or Council to come to a view itself, before presenting to and/or consulting with others
To maintain the confidence of another organisation
To protect commercially sensitive information
To maintain public confidence in and/or the RCVS

Point 1 seems fair enough to me, although you would assume that once the Council had come to a view, the content/minutes would be declassified, so that the electorate could itself see the basis for decisions. I don't believe that happens, but I am not sure. Have asked.

Point 2. You would think that was reasonably rare. But in any event, surely the College should be asking other organisations to be transparent.

Point 3. Clear cut.

Point 4. Er, this one seems very dodgy to me. Firstly confidence is SO, SO subjective. Very easy for anyone to label something this way. Second, it suggests Council is discussing things which would cause the public to lose confidence.

I am going to do a quick count of the reasons things were classified confidential over the last two years, since records were published.

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Coopers Wamae — Mon, 20 Jun 2022 21:51:30 GMT

Maybe we should all write to the home secretary to disband the entire council. A fresh restructuring is our only way out of this shenanigans. Think about it.

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Richard Carter — Sun, 19 Jun 2022 12:39:40 GMT

Judging by some of the topics and responses just on this forum, I suspect I’m so far behind where others want to be regarding hours, responsibilities to patients, clients and the rest of the team…

perhaps just a desk that registers the qualified vets and nurses and leave everything else? So if a client is unhappy, the process is a court case, if you want a certain standard (eg cat friendly), you make the effort to join them…

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 19 Jun 2022 09:52:30 GMT

[quote userid="2675" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30330/rcvs-or-alternative-body/237695#237695"]strikes me as very odd.[/quote]

What's your alternative?

RE: RCVS or alternative body?

Richard Carter — Sun, 19 Jun 2022 09:16:20 GMT

For an organisation funded by the profession to then find that there has been a number of agendas been classified as confidential and not open to the members that pay their salaries - strikes me as very odd.

I don’t really swallow the idea that these are confidential because of potential legal reasons- the people on council are accountable and don’t have anonymity privileges.