Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Alastair Welch — Wed, 06 Jul 2022 22:57:12 GMT

David,

When you are offering a six figure salary (and a generous relocation allowance) give me a shout, but until then I will probably just tough it out where I am.

If you are setting up then I am happy to wish you good luck and a vet business owned and run by the same individuals will likely do well, but it is a lot tougher than being an employee.

In fact although we sold the bulk of our veterinary practices I remain the co owner in a smaller practice so still have a foot both camps.

All political careers end in failure (as we are witnessing) but I don’t really feel ‘busted’ as you put it. I entered vet medicine with the aim of making a good living and by 45 I could retire tomorrow so (at least by the standards I set myself) I feel I’ve done ok.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

David Mills — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 20:06:24 GMT

[quote userid="8182" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237938#237938"]The Forum Big Beast of Brexit, the Apex Predator, Top of the Trophic Cascade hurling insults (Cranks, Remoaners, Zealots, Gobshites) with an undercurrent of anger aimed at crowding more reasonable voices out of the[/quote]

How long ago was Brexit yet you cranks are still wittering on about it like the fall of Christ . Get. Over. It. It doesn’t make you seem clever, morally superior, inclusive, liberal, lovely, caring, eurocentric. It just makes you and any arguments you proffer completely and utterly irrelevant. Sodding Brexit dragged into a RCVS debate. Mind boggles.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

David Mills — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 20:03:17 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237932#237932"]You hadn't given me your further wisdom on how to run a veterinary business or how much vets should be paid.[/quote]

Sorry old fruit after your said you sold out, along with Gillian, the debate kinda lost its thrust for me. Two busted corporate flushes opining on modern day veterinary finances was a little too like Hesletine/Hague/Major/Blair rattling on about modern politics. Pointless. Captains of industry reverted to employees, let us sit round a capture and imbibe your dated wisdom.

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237932#237932"]Perhaps you've been dusting off your CV and are applying for a new job paying the going rate? [/quote]

Jeez, you’re really triggered by someone being more skilful than you eh Same goes for disruptive veterinary businesses daring to challenge the established dogma of sell outs.

Jon Wray said on here years ago the road to ruin is caring what colleagues think about you because they’re probably wrong. It’s sage advice. Give it a rest Al, and keep punching for that yacht, I’ll ping you when you can apply for a job with me, but it sounds like you’ll need a bit of er retraining first

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Eamon McAllister — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 10:43:51 GMT

The Forum Big Beast of Brexit, the Apex Predator, Top of the Trophic Cascade hurling insults (Cranks, Remoaners, Zealots, Gobshites) with an undercurrent of anger aimed at crowding more reasonable voices out of the discourse.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 04:48:28 GMT

[quote userid="18117" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237926#237926"]Hi Francisco. Happy to clear that up[/quote]

Thank you, Colin.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Alastair Welch — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 23:08:25 GMT

David,

I assumed you were on holiday. You hadn't given me your further wisdom on how to run a veterinary business or how much vets should be paid. Perhaps you've been dusting off your CV and are applying for a new job paying the going rate?

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

David Mills — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 21:39:20 GMT

[quote userid="18117" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237926#237926"]Francisco. Happy to clear that up. Your assumption with regard to Brexit is incorrect. [/quote]

You needn’t bother. To everyone of Snr Gomez’ ilk everything is the fault of Brexit. He even misquotes inflation figures from the EU. You won’t convince zealots. Even when Sir Keir the Invisible comes out tonight saying Brexit will stay. His response will be some non sequitur from decades ago. It’s pointless correcting or arguing with cranks dressed in sheeps clothing.

Well done on your resignation, it takes courage and integrity.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Colin Whiting — Mon, 04 Jul 2022 21:20:22 GMT

Hi Francisco. Happy to clear that up. Your assumption with regard to Brexit is incorrect. My decision had nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit or any issues related to it. From memory, I voted in favour of accepting lower English language requirement evidencing, where it was still clearly sufficient for colleagues to communicate effectively. I spoke about encouraging recruitment and interchange / training support from worldwide nations equally too.

There is a forthcoming meeting this Wednesday, the first 'open' one on the topic, that would present one of the major challenges to having to support decision made by Council. Previously the whole subject and meetings were confidential, including the fact that meetings were held at all, and I gave my assurance that I would not breach any confidentiality when I resigned, and I intend to respect that fully. Now that the meeting has been declared and the topic on the open agenda, I can reference it.

Kind regards,

Col

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Coopers Wamae — Thu, 23 Jun 2022 00:15:33 GMT

Looking back 10 years I'm still convinced Dr Chris is the 'last of dying breed'. Even now still true to his words ,a caviar of Veterinary resilience. Another figure was Dr Stephenson Richard it's unfortunate how things turned out.

mrcvs.co.uk/.../news-story.php

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

George Cooper — Wed, 22 Jun 2022 13:22:57 GMT

Strikes me as "interesting" that in recent years the four *independent* elected members from practice who were good at reporting back to the membership - ie Richard Stevenson, Bob Partridge, Chris Barker and now Whiting - have all been siphoned off into the side-lines, or have felt the need to resign, living these with the loudest voices to hold sway over decision-making.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 22 Jun 2022 09:05:39 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237736#237736"] And since the rcvs deals with registration and theres a shortage due to many causes including B. Would Colin come to comment here and tell us whether having to support an anti-Brexit stance when he was in favour of it had anything (even if only a small part) with his decision to resign?[/quote]

Colin Whiting There you go, Francisco Gomez! ;)

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 22 Jun 2022 08:08:46 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237733#237733"]small profession[/quote]

This is a key point. It's a huge industry. Personally, I would not reveal how each person voted but I would reveal numbers.

And since the rcvs deals with registration and theres a shortage due to many causes including B. Would Colin come to comment here and tell us whether having to support an anti-Brexit stance when he was in favour of it had anything (even if only a small part) with his decision to resign?

I tried to tag him, but I couldn't see the 'Whiting' in his handle. I understand if he rather not want to be involved but it does sounds plausible he wants to stick to his beliefs (if he still believes it)?

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 22 Jun 2022 07:44:33 GMT

[quote userid="6353" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237730#237730"]I would suggest that Arlo’s figures substantially underestimate the percentage of papers marked as ‘Confidential’ given that many agenda items are routine/standing items which have to be listed as ‘Unclassified’[/quote]

Chris Barker Wasn't quite sure I understood what you mean here. I mean surely if they are listed as 'Unclassified', for whatever reason, then they are. On the RCVS website it says 'Unclassified' items are published online and can be freely shared and discussed.

Or are you saying they are listed so, but in reality are not?

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237731#237731"]AFAIK Unanimity isn't what the statement requires. [/quote]

Well it rather depends on the reason for the demand for decisions to be supported. If it is to present a united voice, then unanimity is what they are after, and revealing who voted how or how many voted how would reveal a lack of unity.

I think it is bonkers, myself.

Regulators by their very nature are likely to be looked at with some distrust by those they regulate, and a lack of transparency fuels that distrust.

Maintaining secrecy in the digital age also seems a remarkably Canute-like position which belongs in a different era.

It is so easy these days for people to leak information to a big audience in a non-identifiable way. You would have thought the RCVS would have learned that from the last leak. What did they spend on the plumber then? Was it £50K, and they still didn't find the source of the leak.

In a small profession like this, collective responsibility fuels mistrust too.

I think collective responsibility may (stress may) have some merit in government, which needs to present strong leadership on a huge variety of issues.

But in a small profession of educated people voting on matters which are not usually of the same level of importance as government matters? What on earth is wrong with transparency over who voted and how. With allowing councillors to say: "I was against, but it was put to the vote, and we all have to respect that"?

I sometimes wonder if the RCVS paints targets on its shoes to reduce any chance of missing.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 21:27:25 GMT

[quote userid="6353" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237730#237730"]for Council to pretend that all matters are decided with unanimity is to deny reality[/quote]

Can't they not still show the vote count on a matter regardless? AFAIK Unanimity isn't what the statement requires.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Chris Barker — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 21:08:28 GMT

There is a clear danger here for our supposed self-governing profession. Far too much of RCVS business is now conducted behind closed doors (and I would suggest that Arlo’s figures substantially underestimate the percentage of papers marked as ‘Confidential’ given that many agenda items are routine/standing items which have to be listed as ‘Unclassified’); dissenting voices will no longer be tolerated and therefore the Profession will be totally unaware of what is being discussed and decided in its name until fully fledged initiatives emerge.

Even as proposals were laid to progressively shrunk Council in size, concerns were raised regarding the diminishing skill sets available thereafter to ensure meaningful/in depth discussion of veterinary matters. In a shrunken Council the entrenched view of a single expert can have disproportionate influence. Council is well supplied with Privy Council appointees, expert in all aspects of regulation; however what these appointees lack is relevant experience of the veterinary profession and the conflicts and compromises which are part and parcel of daily veterinary care. Equally concerning is that the number of Council members currently active in first opinion practice has fallen precipitously. There is a considerable risk that on certain matters there will be simply be insufficient ‘experts’ available to Council to ensure that a contrary view is offered during discussion in order that all proposals are thoroughly tested before adoption.

What is now being demanded of Councillors suggests that both Council and the Executive consider themselves infallible, and that they will accept no criticism. Without a return to transparency MsRCVS can have little or no confidence in the decisions being made at Council, and for Council to pretend that all matters are decided with unanimity is to deny reality.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 19:09:57 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237712#237712"]Olivia Cook - I am curious, did you not have the same qualms as Colin over the 'How we work' requirements. In particular the inability to express any dissent? [/quote]

She has been graceful with her answer. But how do you think I would feel about the RCVS if she said : 'I do, but I'm gonna join the picket lines anyway...' You see what I'm getting at?

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Beats — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 14:00:58 GMT

Perhaps elected councillors should be given the option of going into "opposition" - if they choose this they are free to say what they think publicly but at the price that they may be excluded from various top secret meetings and votes, won't be allowed to work on committees etc etc?

Instead of totally being excluded, they could be representative of the profession that would like to regulate the regulator to regulate those regulated with regulations that require a degree of regulatory refrain.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 13:27:08 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237720#237720"] That shoul dbe enough to spot a trend[/quote]

Iain Richards I thought my graph already showed that, over seven years. I'll bet I would get knocked back with a FOI anyway.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Iain Richards — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 13:04:35 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237704#237704"]

My graph showed a significant increase in the number of agenda items marked 'confidential' over the last 7 years or so.

I wondered if that could be just a change in the methodology of reporting the minutes. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Anyway, if that were true, you would expect a sudden shift, whereas this seems like a general trend.

[/quote]

DO an FOI request for the last 20 years. That shoul dbe enough to spot a trend

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Bob Russell — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 11:14:44 GMT

Bob Partridge was a thorn in the committees side for broadly similar reasons. Things appear worse now than then.

Things can be too transparent to be fair on occasions so a free for all is not appropriate. Common sense and decency should guide committee members.

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Olivia Cook — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 10:15:04 GMT

Arlo - all I can say is "ask me in a year" - by then I might have an answer. Till then, I wait to see how the first few months go....

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Bob Russell — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 09:51:14 GMT

We are dealing with three completely different issues.

1) Collective responsibility. No real issue here. Respect the majority decision but can openly disagree. This is healthy and understandable for general policy and planning. The profession really needs to be able to give input.

2)Confidentially. No problems here either really. These cover the disciplinary process, commercial contracts (may be).

3)Secrecy. Not acceptable, unhealthy and potentially corrupt.

If the committee cannot work out the difference then they should start resigning. It should not be up to someone to resign because they have a functioning moral compass.

I hate to see big chunks of committee minutes blocked out as they often are. Is this confidentiality or secrecy/cover up? We cannot know because it is secret!

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 07:47:18 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237706#237706"]I just don't see it that way. Whatever everyone else is saying. It is definitely akin to a political organisation. It's got to have a clear direction, and the best way the public and any other regulatory body would lose confidence on it (and thus make it dissappear) would be to have a disarray of contradictory opinions from its members when facing the public. [/quote]

I think we are talking about two different things, Francisco Gomez. The first is collective responsibility, which does inevitably lead to a reduced level of transparency (and consequent suspicion of the organisation that is less than 100% transparent), the question being whether that is a price worth paying for a united voice.

Thing is, in the digital era we live in, it is becoming harder and harder to maintain secrecy, and it could be argued a bit Canute-like to think one can.

The second issue is about agenda items which Council classifies as secret (again leading to reduced level of transparency and consequent suspicion). This is where secrecy by the RCVS / Council could just reflect society's more risk averse nature.

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237706#237706"]It's got to have a clear direction, and the best way the public and any other regulatory body would lose confidence on it (and thus make it dissappear) would be to have a disarray of contradictory opinions from its members when facing the public. [/quote]

Maybe, but it's not like all members of Council disagree about everything. I would imagine in most things there's a consensus. And also there are only a few issues where contradictory opinions might cause a loss of confidence.

What confidence anyway? One suspects only a very small percentage of the population has sufficient interaction with or knowledge of the RCVS to have any confidence in it in the first place! (which is not to say they distrust it, they've just never heard of it!)

Olivia Cook - I am curious, did you not have the same qualms as Colin over the 'How we work' requirements. In particular the inability to express any dissent?

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Olivia Cook — Tue, 21 Jun 2022 05:41:13 GMT

I have to admit that since Colin was a great supporter when I was standing for RCVS Council this year, and the first one to call and congratulate me when I got in, my first reaction when he told me he was standing down was a heartbroken wail of "Colin, you can't do this to me....."

RE: Editor of Raptured Spleen quits RCVS council

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 20 Jun 2022 19:21:13 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30329/editor-of-raptured-spleen-quits-rcvs-council/237704#237704"]

To maintain public confidence in and/or the RCVS

Take that latter one. Very subjective, isn't it. Could this greater level of secrecy just reflect broader society's increasingly risk-averse nature.

[/quote]

I just don't see it that way. Whatever everyone else is saying. It is definitely akin to a political organisation. It's got to have a clear direction, and the best way the public and any other regulatory body would lose confidence on it (and thus make it dissappear) would be to have a disarray of contradictory opinions from its members when facing the public.

I'm not defending the institution itself, but the way this or any other institution of this calibre should face the public.