Veterinary Salaries

RE: Veterinary Salaries

cairncross — Wed, 06 Jul 2022 07:48:49 GMT

Here the 24 7 rule means if you set up you are either going to have to work 24 7 or offload that work to one of your nearest competitors whom you have set up against and pay them a monthly fee they can choose. If the competition snd marketscpeople continue to think that it ok to send everyone locally to one centre

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Chris Milligan — Tue, 05 Jul 2022 22:09:52 GMT

[quote userid="2249" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237878#237878"] What cannot be done is earning significant salaries without some form of investment of time learning skills/money/risk/discomfort of other sort. [/quote]

Not sure where the situation is at in the UK these days, but over here we are seeing expensive locums ($800-1000 per day in GP work) dominating the workforce, picking and choosing where they work, rarely working more than 4 days a week with no obligations outside of their 9-5. They definitely fall under the bracket of 'significant salaries', and I don't see much in the way of time/skills or discomfort investigation. Risk, maybe from job security but to a degree pandemic politics and certainly corporate culture teaches us all very clearly that security is a myth - better to take charge of your own affairs, and I think these young vets are well on the way to understanding that. Encouragingly, many of these same locums now have enough of an income to go to a bank and set up a practice, which we're seeing a lot of here

RE: Veterinary Salaries

cairncross — Sat, 02 Jul 2022 07:13:52 GMT

Not unreasonable at all but depends on the minutae. We are seeing lots of procedures in the 100 to 200 range being declined , consults over 50 pounds causing trouble to pay and ongoing meds being purchased in smaller quanta.

We have 2 and need 3 vets working too quickly to generate the same income. . Other staff are now not being paid a sustainable living wage yet my clients disposable income and ability to contribute has fallen and has a lot further to go.

It would seem insane not to reflect and aim for the high end and extract a big margin per transaction except can't think of anything worse

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 01 Jul 2022 20:11:40 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237892#237892"]

Maybe we should be setting our sights on £100k salaries?

Off the press this morning - although it does state "up to"

[/quote]

And this is why I'm against listing salaries in adverts........

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Clive Ansell — Fri, 01 Jul 2022 06:13:46 GMT

Maybe we should be setting our sights on £100k salaries?

Off the press this morning - although it does state "up to"

Lead Veterinary Surgeon (Flexible, Full or Part-Time)

Night Veterinary Surgeon (Full or Part-time)

RE: Veterinary Salaries

James Dunne — Thu, 30 Jun 2022 09:21:51 GMT

Chris, I'm not ignoring the fact that money matters, but there are significant other factors at play. Obtaining finance to buy is a big factor, for sure. That is a real issue for a lot of people nowadays. That in itself is both related to the amount of monies involved and kind of not related, in another sense - lenders are just not that willing to front up for amounts equal to the size of a reasonable house, never mind the value of a successful veterinary practice. This has been the case for a good few years, even without the involvement of corporate practice. If you read my entire post, you will note that I sold a partnership to a private individual subsequent to selling a separate partnership to a corporate. It is not all to do with money. I also see the rise in new clinics being set up and it is also considerably cheaper to stick up your own plate than to buy into a partnership with existing hard-earned and pricey goodwill. The economy will not stay bleak forever and there isn't always a 'right' time to set up business. Be prepared for considerably harder graft and somewhat higher risk when you go it alone though. The risk is somewhat reduced nowadays in that there are more bodies willing to purchase your business if you need to sell it on, be that for retirement, career direction change, illness, etc etc. As to how this relates to salaries, which was the original thread: another post earlier mentioned the margins in veterinary practice are wafer-thin. This is correct to an extent. Taking charge of the business was one way to increase one's salary and this has become less of an option, whether you believe it is because of corporate takeover or whether you believe that it is due to less people willing/able/suitable to do so. We also live in times of opportunity though and you can make more money by doing OOH work, Locum work, setting up your own business, specialising, not doing clinical practice, there is a fair list there of ways to earn. What cannot be done is earning significant salaries without some form of investment of time learning skills/money/risk/discomfort of other sort. There are only so many hours in the day and most of us have many other commitments that take us away from where we could earn more. It may seem unfair, but it is the reality of life.

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Chris Milligan — Thu, 30 Jun 2022 07:15:05 GMT

[quote userid="2249" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237876#237876"]a lot less graduates are interested in partnership nowadays compared to 15 years ago. Believe what you like, but we looked for suitable partners for many years and the most common answer when asked was that people did not want the responsibility and stress. [/quote]

Definitely not our experience, maybe things are quite different on your side of the pond but a large number of even young, less experienced vets want a partnership deal if they can get one - the sole obstacle to most of them is money and ability to compete with corporate offers. Most grads here (Canada) have sizeable student loans, but salaries are more than competitive compared to the UK. When we sold the three circling corporates at the time were offering between 15 and 25% over an already generous valuation - no individual vet can compete with that, especially when the corporates are dead set on getting the clinic. In such a climate it doesn't matter if you have a suitable personality individual with willing and a vision for the clinic, or even one that is highly solvent and financially well endowed. Big money always wins out. Not a criticism, but the reality for most I suspect. I do wonder now inventory has been largely suppressed and the economy is looking...well, bleak, whether this situation may be reversed somewhat. What I am seeing a lot of from erstwhile partnership candidates is simply that they're setting up their own clinics; so many new ones in Vancouver and Victoria which is encouraging.

RE: Veterinary Salaries

James Dunne — Thu, 30 Jun 2022 07:02:16 GMT

Hi Stephen, a lot less graduates are interested in partnership nowadays compared to 15 years ago. Believe what you like, but we looked for suitable partners for many years and the most common answer when asked was that people did not want the responsibility and stress. This is understandable. The bureaucracy business owners deal with is overwhelming nowadays and is a 24/7/365 commitment that many people do not wish for. And for those that are interested, it is harder to obtain the monies required now compared to a few years ago. Many graduates cannot afford to buy their own home, never mind then obtain a business loan. And then there is the question of what the individual is like to work with; it's not just a question of money. The pool of people suitable to become any one individual's business partner has certainly dwindled. Couple that with the advent of corporate practices who don't have issues borrowing and it is easy to see why practices sell to corporates. Timing matters too. If you have a partner due to retire contractually and the remaining partners in a successful practice cannot come up with the monies to buy them out and there isn't a suitable incoming partner, it can be a very difficult time for all involved - been there, done that. I've sold my involvement in separate partnerships to both corporate and individuals (the corporate first, in case you're wondering) and the private individual sale was a lot smoother and quicker. There are advantages and disadvantages to each, like anything else. As to where the profits go, I'm not sure why this is relevant. Corporate practices generally make higher profits than partnerships due to economy of scale and larger rebate percentages on goods sold. So it stands to reason that shareholders will on average see a larger dividend than a private owner. I am still employed by the corporate I sold to (IVC) and I don't see a huge difference in terms of what we do. We get told what brands we can and shouldn't use, which is fine, but we still set our own prices and don't have any interference clinically, so these were two big tropes that just don't seem to exist (in my experience of N = 1, though!!). In some respects, we are under less pressure to make money and good/bad months don't cause the same highs and lows that they did when we owned the business. Maybe mine is a different experience to others who sold their interests, I don't know, but certainly not in line with the commonly expressed sentiments out there!

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Chris Milligan — Wed, 29 Jun 2022 22:19:27 GMT

[quote userid="4256" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237871#237871"]no one wanted partnerships so that's why everyone sells corporate[/quote]

I think many people want partnerships to have a say, just most people can't compete with the corporate offer of $$$ in excess of the owner's asking price.

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 29 Jun 2022 19:41:45 GMT

Anyone know what % goes to shareholders vs what % would have gone to the partner/s?

Not convinced there's a massive difference but without the carrot of partnership who wants to work for goodwill and peanuts?

And before you say no one wanted partnerships so that's why everyone sells corporate... I just don't agree

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Chris Milligan — Tue, 28 Jun 2022 15:20:49 GMT

[quote userid="14725" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237389#237389"]Obviously corporates take their cut for their shareholders[/quote]

You've answered your own question

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Bob Russell — Thu, 16 Jun 2022 09:20:59 GMT

Don't kid yourself!

The margins are usually wafer thin, competition often fierce and the overheads are crippling. Many of these costs are pointless and a waste of money but someone in an ivory tower feels compliance is required. So many of the bills I pay benefit clients, patients and the business not one jot.

Typical example would be the VMD. 98% jobsworth 2% value.

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Clive Ansell — Wed, 15 Jun 2022 17:26:21 GMT

[quote userid="6297" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237611#237611"]I don't think £75k is completely unreasonable for a very good GP vet. There may not be that many that could justify it, and if you're consulting most of the day I don't think it would be possible, but for a vet with at least 10-15 years of experience working up medicine cases, competent at ultrasound and doing a good amount of soft tissue surgery, up to the level of things like enterectomies and anal sac removals for example, I do think it is possible to justify a salary approaching that. [/quote]

I think so.

Just a thought, but while folk are chasing the premium work for the higher salaries, who's going to be left over to do the bread and butter routine donkey work; vaccinations, anal glands, nails, routine neuters, euthanasias etc for peanuts?

I am working a sole charge locum at the moment, it is about 75% consultations and 25% procedures. I would prefer fewer consults and more procedures, but I have no control over that. We take about £3k a day, so £2.5k ex VAT. It should be feasible to pay a £75k (or about £400 a day) from that

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 15 Jun 2022 16:04:20 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237639#237639"]but until you run a business (by which I mean own and carry the risk of losing all of your worldly possessions if it goes belly up) then your pronouncements on business don't carry much heft. [/quote]

This. Impossible to describe unless you've been there. Being in debt up to your eyeballs and trying not to get too stressed after it's been a quiet week....

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 15 Jun 2022 15:58:54 GMT

Excellent replies Al and Francisco, but probably wasted. He works out our costs in the same way our annoying clients do ... assuming it's just about the wage of the vet and a bit of lighting and heating.

Clueless.

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Alastair Welch — Wed, 15 Jun 2022 10:33:28 GMT

David,

I certainly wouldn't describe myself as a captain of industry but I was a partner in a largish practice (7 figure turnover, about 140 FTE employees) for a decade so I do have some relevant experience.

We do have a group of 'house vets' (in truth we used to describe them as 'interns' but felt that this might be misinterpreted as someone yet to achieve their MRCVS as in other walks of life interns are perhaps pre qualification so changed the title). This is a popular role and has always been over-subscribed. Many of our ex interns/house vets have gone to complete further training and reach recognised Specialist status. We remain in touch with most of them and there is a vastly positive description of the program that we offer. it is true that most of our house vets don't have much of an understanding of running the business, and they would express surprise when I explained that for every £100 that went in the till I would personally earn between £1 and £2 (dependent on a few variables). Our vets often see the 100% mark up on some drugs and see a big lump of profit, but this is of course wrong and I would strongly urge veterinary students to try and understand the running of veterinary businesses. Undercharging (most typically by forgetting to include an item) is endemic within our industry but it doesn't take much to move from the black to the red.

I do drive through a lot of electric gates. These are mostly owned by businesses for which I provide veterinary services. The owners of these businesses do so to make a profit and as such are keen to drive a hard bargain. We work in the same geographical area as perhaps a dozen other practices so 'the market' functions fairly well and whilst we do make a profit from such work it is a modest one.

Your 'fag packet' calculations are not worth the fag packet, and as Francisco points out are missing so much of what it takes to run the business as to make them meaningless. It might be that the margin (based on the very narrow set of costs that you have chosen) approaches 50% but that is very far removed from profit. It takes me about 6 minutes to take a set of fetlock radiographs and I might charge the client £300. The 'margin' (if you measure the income generated on a per hour basis) is huge but the kit was £60k and it might sit idle for the rest of the day. We still do our own OOH- if we have a mare requiring a C-section then we will have around 10 employees who are all on-call at any one time (and usually 3 or 4 students) turn up in the middle of the night to try and get a successful outcome. If it happens that there is a night without a call we still pay all the staff. Splitting profit into individual units is nonsense.

I just picked FY21 as it was the top of the list but CVS's results are available for years and years. They are making a profit but it is a modest profit. Whilst other groups don't publish their results given that they all operate within the same business conditions it is hard to imagine that they are doing much better or much worse than the publicly listed businesses.

Whilst it is a long time since I did small animal work the split of our practice was about 2/3 horse work 1/3 SA so the SA turnover ran into multiple £M's. Enough to take an active interest in how this side of the business was doing.

I will happily admit that I entered veterinary medicine with the intention of becoming a business owner and making a good living, it is for others to judge but (even in advance of selling the business) I was content with how things were going. If your ambition was to spend your career in charity practice (and I am sure that this has some very good points) then you are clearly doing very well but until you run a business (by which I mean own and carry the risk of losing all of your worldly possessions if it goes belly up) then your pronouncements on business don't carry much heft.

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Richard Carter — Wed, 15 Jun 2022 09:32:40 GMT

A comment was made earlier if more vets were more business like, we wouldn’t be in the mess we are now. Actually think the exact opposite- the rise of the management guru, the concern over average transactions and other performance based stats has pushed us from a caring vocation to a growing public perception of only being in it for the money. When staff are facing the emotional disaster daily of trying to provide a service their clients can not ( or don’t want to) afford, something breaks and they leave for a job where they not being forced to meet performance targets made up by someone who definitely doesn’t work on weekends or out of hours

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 15 Jun 2022 02:16:44 GMT

I'm sure you're being deliberately provocative, but I'd like to answer the reader. Yes, of course we can do more procedures but that means more costs involved too.

When calculating Break-even points, we can just narrow ourselves to the procedure time. Many processes happen often at a cost that we often forget, so we take the whole running of the practice. Often per month, so these costs appear and are accounted for.

For example, there are many non clinical roles that need income such as receptionists, cleaners (if you choose to employ that role, and cleaning regardless), practice management, HR (when there's a bullying claim or a potential discrimination case. Do you use an external provider, do you use your corporate department, or do you handle this yourself without support? All of them are costing you money. Even if you DIY). Then, the times when you and your patient are not actively 'producing' such as calculating drug dosages or admitting/discharging etc, the 'free' post op check a few days later... Do you employ a nurse to look after kernels? What about an extra receptionist who chase debt in the morning and processes insurance forms in the evenings? Most suppliers also work on a 'contractual basis' so you pay them a monthly or yearly fee. Even before we hived up to IVC, our PMS was charging us a few hundred pounds/yr per working PC and software licensing. What about advertising? It is estimated that every year you can lose up to 20% of your patients. Most of them became their animals die, pts or simply the person moves away from your area. But the new resident needs to know about you. Then advertising comes hand in hand with loss leaders such as puppy vaccines. Every practice in the land uses discounted offers, knowing that done well and attracting the clients mean spending more than just 15 minutes during the vaccine. Not just for the wellbeing of the practice, but also the future patient. And what about recruitment? Adverts in some papers costs thousands (Thank you, Arlo for making yours affordable lol). The time you spend training on new roles, etc... And don't get me started on repairs (we got hit a couple of years back with a new x-ray machine as repairing was costing almost same as new!), investments on new procedures, subscription fees (do you get your VDS paid?), time dealing with complaints, who's taking the bins?! What about the guy who clean the windows!?

When you get down to it, just short of 50% of your gross income is spent on salaries. But it is a bit broader than thinking purely on the procedure while the patient is on the table and taking into account just the people who are performing it.

I've done it for over 4 years and really enjoyed it, but made the mistake of doing a full-time clinical role alongside it and was breaking me!

RE: Veterinary Salaries

David Mills — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 22:51:11 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237592#237592"]Having exposed your ignorance of the economics of veterinary practice I can now understand why you have opted to remain an employee (and a wise choice I might add).[/quote]

I do so love it when people who have run a business come on here as Captains of Industry telling "employees" the way of the world and everything in it. It makes me chuckle. I do ponder if you speak to your "house vets" (or whatever nonsense you call assistants) in the same way.

Nevertheless, Cap, and notwithstanding a horse vet who probably deals only with those with electric gates, do enlighten me (and Michael) how a £800 "dental" doesn't provide 50% profit. Let me do my back of the fag packet calcs here, if I may.

Assume 1h work in a 8h ops day. Generous locumesque wages vet/nurse £100. Building/heating/lighting/dental machine/rates about £50 when divided over appropriate time period of a machine lasting 10-15 years, servicing etc etc? Consumables, xrays £50 ( v generous). What else? Yes Francisco Gomez it takes 100s to keep the doors open but (unless you're a tanking practice) those hours are filled with many procedures not just one dental.

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237592#237592"]According to their most recent results CVS have declared an audited profit (before tax) for FY21 of roughly of 6.5% (£33.1M of £510.1M turnover). I bet they flog a few of those £800 dentals, perhaps you could give them some tips to improve their profit margin up to your guess of 50%.[/quote]

Ah 2021! the golden year for veterinary businesses worldwide, famously

I do love logical falacy.

But, wait Cpt...

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237592#237592"]Its a long time since I did any canine surgery (unless you count cutting off a few puppies' tails) so I'll pass on the BOAS offer thanks,[/quote]

No! But yet...

I thought you were an expert!

We can all play this game, but it's quite boring for both sides and the forum. I'm sorry you're not retired yet, I really am, and I genuinely hope you find that boat soon. But this kinda formal pedagogical style you have? Save it for the bute and box rest, as I think you sometimes have some interesting things to say (just not about cats, dogs, and wages ;) )

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 14 Jun 2022 09:38:37 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237577#237577"]I'm not telling you what you're worth, I'm saying (as you well know) that you and Clive thinking you're worth £75k is pie in the sky, ludicrous, naive, whatever. You aren't. I'm sure you're both very good GP vets but the current market can't support that wage for people who don't add value of big ticket items. You may disagree. But you're wrong[/quote]

As a clinical director working in the South East I don't think £75k is completely unreasonable for a very good GP vet. There may not be that many that could justify it, and if you're consulting most of the day I don't think it would be possible, but for a vet with at least 10-15 years of experience working up medicine cases, competent at ultrasound and doing a good amount of soft tissue surgery, up to the level of things like enterectomies and anal sac removals for example, I do think it is possible to justify a salary approaching that.

RE: Veterinary Salaries

niall morton — Mon, 13 Jun 2022 20:03:09 GMT

Amortisation is certainly one reason

profit is very different to cash flow

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Alastair Welch — Mon, 13 Jun 2022 10:51:39 GMT

Michael,

Don’t complain, you should be delighted! What an opportunity. Once you reinstate your open surgery they’ll be queuing round the corner.

Just think of all the extra time you can spend at work instead of boring stuff like being with your family and friends.

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 13 Jun 2022 06:54:25 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237598#237598"]Can anyone explain how CVS can buy a local practice, keep roughly same staff structure, have better buying power, central management and yet they are doubling the estimate for procedures in the space of a year, and making so little profit?![/quote]

6.5% profit is actually reasonable for a veterinary practice.

The numbers Al mentioned of 17 to 22% would be before the partners are paid.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237598#237598"]If I upped the cost of my dentals to £800[/quote]

Most dental procedures I carry out don't cost £800.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237598#237598"]Is it because many of their clients have left?[/quote]

Maybe. I'd also say that, like many large businesses, they can be inefficient sometimes. But they are also, generally, well equipped surgeries with appropriately paid staff.

As Francisco said, all businesses have their fixed overheads. You can't directly compare the costs unless you also look at everything else. Maybe your fixed (and possibly variable) costs are much lower than an urban small animal practice?

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30307/veterinary-salaries/237600#237600"]Shareholders, investors, directors, managers, bonuses, dividends, over reliance on locums, [/quote]

I may be wrong (I'm not an accountant) but wouldn't most of those things be paid out of the profits? So out of the 6.5%?

I agree with the locum costs part ... but all practices have that issue. The corporates just feel it more because of their size! I also think there are too many managers! But isn't that what the JVPs were looking for - someone else to do the management? (Whether that actually happens in practice is another issue!)

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Julian Earl — Sun, 12 Jun 2022 22:09:44 GMT

like Gillian above, I am now retrying t steer clear of this thread but adifferent personal reason\! For me,one benefit of my life-threatening head-trauma that forced me into early retirement has been hat I n longer have to tho=ink about these issues and certainly not fret about thenm thsank you! Niot thatI recommend my route into retirement of course! Bt every day I am grateful to a great Financial Advisor about my first salary backin 1981 who told me to immediately start a Pension Fund with Standard Life as it happened! £30 per month from my £6,600 salary seemed very affordable and it was but in ay case I am getting that money and more back right now!! But I am only jin these threads just out of a morbid interest nowadays I think??

Cheers Everybody!!

RE: Veterinary Salaries

Clive Ansell — Sun, 12 Jun 2022 21:29:35 GMT

More hungry snouts at the trough, having to be fed from income derived from veterinary work.

Shareholders, investors, directors, managers, bonuses, dividends, over reliance on locums,