Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

grumpyoldman — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 18:10:14 GMT

The first guy I ever worked for always said always tell the truth because you won’t have to remember what you said or did. And it was fine then along came social média so now it’s best to say nothing at all . I will say that things like Facebook and Google reviews can only injure your mental health if you dwell on them. I can honestly say that good bad and indifferent comments and reviews have neither a negative or positive effect on business .
What I will do with this kind of negativity is investigate and if they have a point apologise and try to put it right privately but if it’s just vexatious unpleasantness send them a sacking letter with immediate effect . Above all try not to take it home with you .

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Julian Earl — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:13:44 GMT

[quote userid="11901" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236782#236782"]I did make a blunder once when I enquired about a horse I’d seen with a chronic issue, unaware that it’s potential buyer was sitting next to it’s owner. The chap was furious I’d scuppered his sale, but in hindsight it’s not my fault he was attempting to pull the wool over his friend’s eyes…[/quote]

Surely youdidtheright thing. Refusing to abet someone about to commit a fraud of some description really? If you had kept quiet that would have done the profession a worse service than by being open Suggesting vets, i.e. you! could be "bought off" by your client?/ I would support your action here! inadvertent or otherwise!

Sorted??

Edit: Apart fro m my lef paretic thand my head injury has left me having difficulty concentrating and I think that explained my poor typing! Duly amended I think now!!?

ou are welcome btw!!

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Miriam Lodewyks — Mon, 04 Apr 2022 15:04:53 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet"]But actually there are times when it is perfectly right and proper to respond to clients who post inaccurate or false claims about their vet or practice, and I believe vets should be empowered to do so without fear of breaching client confidentiality. [/quote]

I think this is a really valid point. Back in the day when I started working this sort of bollocks just wasn’t even on the radar, I spent many a lovely evening in ‘t Pub with farmers chatting about their livestock and Mrs Pumphries about their pooch’s showing career or recent litter of pups without any concern about who might be listening in.
I did make a blunder once when I enquired about a horse I’d seen with a chronic issue, unaware that it’s potential buyer was sitting next to it’s owner. The chap was furious I’d scuppered his sale, but in hindsight it’s not my fault he was attempting to pull the wool over his friend’s eyes…

Perhaps removing this clause would indeed empower us to be more forthright and assertive with clients.
But I can’t see the RCVS even considering it…?

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 25 Mar 2022 09:46:43 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236721#236721"]a) better for animal welfare if veterinary records were not subject to such confidentiality (ie easier transference of histories, and therefore quicker decision making).[/quote]

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236721#236721"]b) Time saving for vets not to have to get permission / check with vds every time they want or need to share medical info about a dog (say with the police, or when needed by another vet)[/quote]

twice a year? not really an issue for us at least

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236721#236721"]

c) Helpful for vets to be able to respond (politely) to unfair criticism etc in social media without fear of sanction from the regulator

[/quote]

No. I would not respond anything anyway. You can not reason with unreasonable people and any answer will just highlight the complaint. The beauty of today's social media is that everything gets forgotten easily and nobody really cares about anything. Google or Facebook reviews are irrelevant, everybody is busy even those with poor reviews. I now do not care at all about any reviews.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:40:04 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236720#236720"]I don't see it being a problem.[/quote]

Fair enough, that's put me back in my box, but don't you agree that it would be

a) better for animal welfare if veterinary records were not subject to such confidentiality (ie easier transference of histories, and therefore quicker decision making).

b) Time saving for vets not to have to get permission / check with vds every time they want or need to share medical info about a dog (say with the police, or when needed by another vet)

c) Helpful for vets to be able to respond (politely) to unfair criticism etc in social media without fear of sanction from the regulator

No?

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 24 Mar 2022 17:40:04 GMT

I just don't see it as an issue. It's the profession standard and I don't see it being a problem. Not worth wasting energy on the matter.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 24 Mar 2022 17:34:49 GMT

I thought there would be more, and stronger opinions about this issue of confidentiality ... I wonder if it would be worth doing a survey of both vets and more importantly the public to see how more people feel.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:35:38 GMT

cairncross That reads like it should finish ... ... "but it's dreadful."

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236694#236694"]I don't think it can be Dear X , that itself implies and admission that X is a client and we can't even confirm that fact publicly. [/quote]

If someone has posted a complaint / rant, then their name appears adjacent. You addressing them by name is a matter of courtesy, not a suggestion that they are a client.

That said, if they are complaining about some aspect of your service, then they have already let the cat out of the bag, in terms of their client status.

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236694#236694"]under client confidentiality regulations NO Vet is allowed comment on any public forum about an individual case[/quote]

Yes, I did consider going down that route, BUT it effectively tells them that they can make any accusation that they want about you or any other vet, and you will not be able to challenge them.

What, you mean you have not found it helpful to get them in to the practice to talk face to face? So my thinking, to get the complaint offline and into the practice is completely flawed?

There are two things to consider. The first is how you appear to the aggrieved client and whether you can resolve the conflict. Possibly, by the time they have posted on social media, you may not be able to retrieve the situation. The second, arguably more important thing, is how you appear to all the other readers of your response. For the business, this is critical.

It is for this audience that I think it looks good to show that you are almost insanely reasonable, polite, courteous, professional, and have made every effort, including coming to talk.

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236694#236694"]it also falls foul of confidentiality, publicly admitting they are a client by publically asking them to talk privately about their case .[/quote]

Well, er, first they have already talked about their case in public by this stage, and if they are complaining about you, they are inherently a client. second, doesn't your sentence illustrate just what an arse the law is. That you, a busy professional, has to worry about whether or not someone complaining about you about the price of wormers has a right to confidentiality.

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236695#236695"]Animals change hands all the time imagine the havoc of a new owner could demand the data of a previous owner only to discover they had lied about several pre existing problems , we would be piggy in the middle of umpteen disputes and court cases per week. [/quote]

WOAH! Hang on.

First of all, what you seem to be suggesting here is that vets should be complicit in hiding information about pre-existing problems. You are in effect supporting the notion that its OK for clients to lie about pre-existing conditions.

I would argue that if you tied veterinary records to microchips and made them open access,

a) It would have a positive effect on animal welfare. No delay in treatment whilst records are transferred. Transparency over history. Better decision making.

b) At a time when veterinary professionals are under such huge pressure, think of the time saved up and down the country chasing medical records, and wasting time checking whether they are breaching confidentially by, for example, responding to a police enquiry.

And I come back, once again, to ask the question: FOR WHAT? Why does the profession hold client confidentiality over the worming of a dog to be of such great importance.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

cairncross — Tue, 22 Mar 2022 06:45:48 GMT

I think it is important and also useful to the profession. Animals change hands all the time imagine the havoc of a new owner could demand the data of a previous owner only to discover they had lied about several pre existing problems , we would be piggy in the middle of umpteen disputes and court cases per week.

Last night clinic client Mr Cartel ( name changed for confidentiality but not illustrative purposes) turned up with 7 very large breed bull type dogs, in 2 large long lowered cars with very shiny alloy wheels All with a nasty diarrhoea size meant treatment volumes and costs high , 2 dogs admitted for drip one with fairly guraded prognosis. He had just bought a pup from another client of ours and business associate of his( Mr Corleone ) Whom we are still treating the rest of the litter for nasty diarrhoea. Imagine the mess we would be in trying to pass on info here , worse than the inside of Mr Cartels cars. This is a genuine scenario from just last night's clinic it also involved a lot of swearing between Mr and Mrs Cartel about how to spell their dogs Spanish /Mexican sounding names!

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

cairncross — Tue, 22 Mar 2022 06:08:36 GMT

Thank you for trying.

I don't think it can be Dear X , that itself implies and admission that X is a client and we can't even confirm that fact publicly. I am certainly not an expert my concept was more generalised than personalised .I like the concept of explaining the complexities.

MY AMATEUR ATTEMPT

" under client confidentiality regulations NO Vet is allowed comment on any public forum about an individual case , a non response to online accusations should not be seen as an implication of guilt from the individual vet or the profession in general just an observance of very strictly enforced rules. We would like to remind people that all accusations have 2 sides and when only one is allowed to be heard there is an imbalance which is Implicitly unfair. Medical cases are complex and have many variables beyond a vets control that affect outcomes . The veterinary profession has long established official appropriate channels for concerns, which practising vets fund at a cost of many million annually. "

I have not found inviting contact from the online posters helpful perhaps once they post publicly they are not going to back down at any cost or perhaps it reflects on some other associated nature. Certainly good communication preemptive interventions when cases are not having decent outcomes can help greatly and we all probably do this all day long at least if we are not exhausted or time constrained However inviting contact from online abusers is just inviting further conflict .it also falls foul of confidentiality, publicly admitting they are a client by publically asking them to talk privately about their case .

My attempt above is probably full of flaws , I think if we could get some proper agreed form of words that we all used universally it would carry more weight or benefit the collective position would be reinforcing on this basis I think the aim of my last lines are important so as not to be seen as blocking proper concerns.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:55:11 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236618#236618"]Could there be some universal form of words we could attach to disparaging social media posts explaining our inability to respond due to confidentiality rules and perhaps pointing out that all stories have two sides and that our medicine has all sorts of variables and limitations beyond our control rather than certainties [/quote]

cairncross

I've tried to craft a universal form of words. Here they are. What do you think? Before you read them, the aim of these words:

Sound sincere. Not one of these mealy-mouthed "I'm sorry if you think we have done something wrong." Just "I'm sorry", with a little embellishment to compensate for the limitation of the written word.
Make the case for talking face to face, and not via social media (specifically in a way that will resonate with lots of people's experience of Facebook, that it is argumentative etc).
Do NOT explain that you are limited by confidentiality rules, and therefore have your hands tied in terms of how far you may be able to fight back.
To close the discussion (ie it doesnt matter what anyone comes back with, you have explained why you will not engage on Facebook).

-----------------------------------------

Dear first name

We’re so sorry you’re not happy with us. Genuinely. An unhappy client makes us unhappy too.

In any disagreement, both sides may have a different interpretation or recollection of events.

To make things more difficult, veterinary treatment is often complex and administered at a time when emotions are running high.

In our opinion, Facebook is not a good place to resolve any kind of disagreement.

It’s a polarising, argumentative platform.

It’s also not suited to discussing complex subjects.

For these reasons, we don’t think it would be right to reply to your specific points here.

But we would like to resolve the problem, so we'll ring you to organise a convenient time to talk.

-----------------------------------------

What do you (anyone) think?

(I wont take offence if you dislike or think it needs tweaking!).

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 21 Mar 2022 09:27:46 GMT

[quote userid="6297" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236659#236659"]My feeling with complaints on social media is that even if we were allowed to share details of the case I can't see that trying to debate the issue in that format is ever going to work. You've made it a big selling point of vetsurgeon.org that it's impossible to have a constructive discussion on facebook, and I think the same applies to dealing with complaints.[/quote]

I absolutely agree that social media is not the right medium to discuss and solve a complaint. But that's not really what I am talking about here.

I think best practice dictates that the first step is to try and take the complaint offline. By which I mean, post a response that explains why social media is not the place to discuss complicated medical issues, and to invite them to come and discuss in the practice.

It's only when your very best attempt to move the discussion offline has failed that I think it then becomes appropriate to go back to them and challenge false accusations.

I also think it is important to do so, to draw line which says: I'm a professional, and I will at all times be polite, but don't mistake me for a doormat, because I also don't take shit.

Mind you, perhaps this problem will self resolve anyway. I read today that searches for the term 'facebook' have dropped 87% in the last decade, reflecting its decline.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Thomas Johnson — Fri, 18 Mar 2022 14:39:22 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236658#236658"]Anyone else got an opinion on this? Particularly interested to hear from anyone who thinks client confidentiality IS necessary, and why![/quote]

I would say that I don't have a hugely strong opinion, but I don't see the advantages to dropping the need for confidentiality. My feeling with complaints on social media is that even if we were allowed to share details of the case I can't see that trying to debate the issue in that format is ever going to work. You've made it a big selling point of vetsurgeon.org that it's impossible to have a constructive discussion on facebook, and I think the same applies to dealing with complaints.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 18 Mar 2022 13:53:57 GMT

Anyone else got an opinion on this? Particularly interested to hear from anyone who thinks client confidentiality IS necessary, and why!

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Julian Earl — Thu, 17 Mar 2022 10:28:59 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236635#236635"]

Unless, I guess, it was a condom caught in the dishwasher pump.

Before anyone says it, that's not a problem I have ever had.

[/quote]

If you say so Arlo we will believe you, honestly we will!!

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 17 Mar 2022 08:54:48 GMT

Well, I don't think it is a rule when it comes to general business. I certainly wouldn't expect my plumber to refuse to divulge to anyone else what was wrong with my dishwasher without a court order.

Unless, I guess, it was a condom caught in the dishwasher pump.

Before anyone says it, that's not a problem I have ever had.

I am not sure it is that, either.

The ARB just says:

You should ensure that adequate security is in place to safeguard both paper and electronic records for your clients, taking full account of data protection legislation, and that clients’ confidential information is safeguarded.

https://arb.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Architects-Code-2017.pdf

That is a lot less specific than the RCVS one, and reads more like a sensible instruction to keep data safe, but not a gag to prevent architects saying anything about a client's building to a third party.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

cairncross — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 15:37:40 GMT

I have no expertise ,is the confidentiality rule a general law aplying to any business client relationship , the car mechanic or hair dresser or just a professionalism rule ?

I wouldn't be comfortable getting getting into an online battle but a response that means we no longer have to assume a position of guilt by our enforced silence could be good for all involved.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:17:43 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236618#236618"]Could there be some universal form of words we could attach to disparaging social media posts explaining our inability to respond due to confidentiality rules and perhaps pointing out that all stories have two sides and that our medicine has all sorts of variables and limitations beyond our control rather than certainties [/quote]

That is exactly and precisely something I was planning on preparing. And in many cases, it may be the best way of dealing with online criticism. But I think there are situations where one needs something which addresses specific points made by posters, so my original point about confidentiality remains.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

cairncross — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 14:09:40 GMT

Could there be some universal form of words we could attach to disparaging social media posts explaining our inability to respond due to confidentiality rules and perhaps pointing out that all stories have two sides and that our medicine has all sorts of variables and limitations beyond our control rather than certainties

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Beats — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 11:42:43 GMT

Re sending clinical notes: Just try to avoid putting anything personal in notes, then whoever is sending reads them an unticks the line with personal stuff in if need be.

If I answer the phone and is another vet clinic asking for notes, I just ask for sufficient identifying details to confirm that is correct owner (name, address, pet's name usually suffice for me), and then confirm (with the vet clinic on the phone to me) that the owner has given permission for me to send the notes to them. I can't see why I would need to independently check that with the owner unless I think the vet clinic is lying, which has never happened in my career that I know of!

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

cairncross — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 10:49:03 GMT

I had very similar chain phone calls with vds and rcvs re a burglary to premises opposite practise. Delightful client came to clinic and then burgled next door , taking postman hostage briefly ! Other witnesses had informed police of client coming from vets . So i checked re breaching breaching client confidentiality and got same non committal advice and that it was on my head.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 16 Mar 2022 09:02:49 GMT

[quote userid="4037" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236591#236591"]I’m interested to know your thinking as to why commercial clients should have their confidentiality respected, where pet owners don’t?[/quote]

Hi Sarah - just because of commercially sensitive information.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236593#236593"]I also feel the advice about social media and cases is about right. I'd always ask the owner 1st.[/quote]

There is certainly no harm in asking an owner if they mind - but equally, I see no real need for it. In other words, you post a radiograph here with name of owner and dog on it. I fail to see how that is remotely sensitive, or how any owner would see it as anything other than a good thing that you've asked peers for their opinion.

However, the social media guideline place a barrier to that. You've got to remember to ask the owner, and if you happen to be on the site and thinking you'd like to ask what others think, but can't because you didn't ask (and you're not going to ring the owners now), then the moment has passed and the opportunity missed.

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236599#236599"]asked police to put request formally in email, called VDS, who hummed and hawed a little, then suggested I call RCVS, who directed mt to section whatever and basically told me it was up to me, but I better have good reason for breaking client confidentiality. I read it and figured it came under prevention of crime and for the general good, so gave basic info, but advised as I had never actually seen the dog, and the other vet who had seen it couldn't remember it, we couldn't give a strong opinion.[/quote][quote userid="2186" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236601#236601"]I'd still ring the VDS first[/quote]

God ... think of all the time wasted (up and down the country), as you ponder what to do, call the VDS, then call the RCVS. And it is simply not something I think anyone has any right to confidentiality about. It's a dog.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Virginia Campbell — Tue, 15 Mar 2022 11:45:41 GMT

I'd say that's a clear case of the public good. I've had a couple of dogs in my career that I've plastered the record with aggression warnings and noted that I have advised that the dog should be muzzled and on lead in public and kept away from visitors to be house, for example, and at the time if the owners don't seem to be getting the memo I explain that if the cops come calling, I will be handing over my notes to them. I'd still ring the VDS first but I would think the owner doesn't have a leg to stand on there.

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Julie Innes — Tue, 15 Mar 2022 09:55:42 GMT

So I had a situation a couple of weeks ago- dog been involved in an attack on a small child, resulting in serious injury,police want information about our experiences with the dog (aggressive, reactive, only seen twice, once for puppy vacc, once for neutering, where it is noted in the notes that the reason for neutering is that the dog bit the owner's daughter..)

asked police to put request formally in email, called VDS, who hummed and hawed a little, then suggested I call RCVS, who directed mt to section whatever and basically told me it was up to me, but I better have good reason for breaking client confidentiality. I read it and figured it came under prevention of crime and for the general good, so gave basic info, but advised as I had never actually seen the dog, and the other vet who had seen it couldn't remember it, we couldn't give a strong opinion.

But there is one situation where client might be angry about us breaking confidentiality, as it could cost them a court case and their dog

RE: Do pet owners need or deserve confidentiality in their dealings with a vet?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 14 Mar 2022 21:54:44 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30230/do-pet-owners-need-or-deserve-confidentiality-in-their-dealings-with-a-vet/236592#236592"]It was always my understanding that permission is not required when sending clinical notes from one mrcvs to another, as long as no personal or financial information is included. [/quote]

Everyone is right. My understanding is that it's very easy to drop info in about the owner and that binds you under GDPR, even something as simple as "O declined histo due to cost". Therefore I would always get permission to send a history - and find out why they want to move. It's also an opportunity to find out if you've let someone down, someone is upset etc. Even If I was allowed to just send, I wouldn't.

In a situation where owner not able to give permission (or unwilling to give permission, although that has never happened), then I'd happily give a verbal history of pertinent info to another vet or RVN.

I also feel the advice about social media and cases is about right. I'd always ask the owner 1st.