Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Julian Earl — Fri, 18 Mar 2022 08:42:11 GMT

[quote userid="9515" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236585#236585"]No. It's been many decades since it has been proven untrue that animals that don't show 'pain' in ways that we as humans can distinguish as 'pain' aren't feeling that pain in similar ways.[/quote]

Thanks Sarah. I shall delve into my Welfare books to identify such research etc. but it does not specifically ring a bell at all for now.

It might have been covered in the Welfare Certificate but if so I've just forgotten!

Nothing in the books yet!!

Thanks for your reply of course! Best Wishes, always! Julian xx

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 14 Mar 2022 17:44:13 GMT

I suppose there's two driving factors behind the 'evacuation' of pets alongside their owners - the first and probably biggest driver being that these are owned animals that the owner feels a strong bond with, and they don't want to leave them behind (would be pretty hard to reunite again in future, I would imagine)

More objectively (slightly), I would imagine that the potential impact for a pet, left to fend for itself in a city where food would presumably be fairly hard to come by, and shelter similarly, would be greater than that on livestock/ horses - as others have mentioned rural areas likely to be less impacted by shelling etc. If no one is able to provide feed/ water and there isn't grazing available, then suffering could become significant. Wildlife would be fairly unaffected, I would have thought.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Sarah Keir — Mon, 14 Mar 2022 15:59:12 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236567#236567"]Can a Dog or cat suffer more than a cow??[/quote]

No. It's been many decades since it has been proven untrue that animals that don't show 'pain' in ways that we as humans can distinguish as 'pain' aren't feeling that pain in similar ways.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Julian Earl — Sun, 13 Mar 2022 14:22:53 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236548#236548"]a pragmatic approach in that pets are easier to transport in greater numbers, and more quickly. They likely also mean more to their owners who have had their lives upside down[/quote]

That David is the key to their decisions and choices about which animal to take. a Pet will clearly mean more, likely be much smaller so easier to transport and move than a food-producer no matter what, surely? Can a Dog or cat suffer more than a cow?? In terms of physical pain, I would suggest yes? Based on physical behaviours that we see as vets, plus on evolution? As a species potential being primarily a prey-species it makes sense for them certainly not to to show pain and distress that even though their nerves and brains all work the same way generally suggests they do not feel pain as much i the first place? Do pets become closer-bonded to their owners than farm species? Again it makes sense that they do purely by living in closer proximity and being immediately dependent for food and support? After all that think the decision of the people to take their pets is entirely understandable, is it not? We make a career from owners loving their pets. I am unsure that LA vets make a living from farmers loving their livestock, with some rare exceptions in my career! Those who are besotted by their cattle or sheep etc? MightI make a point here? The dispute over the dog or child on the cliff-edge and saving one or the other? As a person who anted to be a vet, ( and not a doctor!), t from the age to 8 to10yers, it would not be an easy decision. I would have to think carefully especially if the dog/cat was my own!! My last dog who I lost on 30/8/87!! I have openly admitted that I would have risked my life for that Labrador and i know the feeling was mutual! The fact the date is embedded in my memory and that I held him tight whispering my love in his right ear as I held him close for the vet to euthanase him shows how much he meant to me! My family still talk of this dog to this day! So who would I take if the Russians arrive here? My wife and son plus my beloved cat in his basket! I think there is only one reason people might take their livestock is for the elfish reason of providing the food, eg milk being the obvious example!

HTH?

julian Earl, cert AVP- stattus, [ WEL].

CHEERS DAVID!

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Utlendigur — Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:22:33 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236548#236548"]I'm not sure it does - it's is likely a pragmatic approach in that pets are easier to transport in greater numbers, and more quickly. They likely also mean more to their owners who have had their lives upside down.[/quote]

Also livestock is going to be in rural areas and less affected by fighting - I get the impression that most farming communities are staying put and the fighting is concentrated around cities.

Also thinking back to Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana, what was found was that many people stayed put because they weren't allowed/able to take their pets and in the end that created significantly more problems trying to help them in the middle of a disaster area than if they had been evacuated with their pets. That led to a change in policy to evacuate pets with their owners in future similar situations https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2019/11/8/20950253/wildfires-hurricane-katrina-pet-evacuation

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Bob Russell — Sat, 12 Mar 2022 10:00:47 GMT

The mass euthanasia of pets was a disaster and with hindsight a crazy over-reaction. However it was expected that the cities were about to be bombed, gassed and levelled to the ground. Children were evacuated on similar grounds.

It was not clear if there would be food for pets so overall something understandable.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Steve Hallahan — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 20:51:27 GMT

Hi folks. The attached screenshots are messages from the vet for whom I was trying to arrange transport out of Kyiv. The courage of the Ukrainians is mind boggling.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Jill Butterworth — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 20:46:03 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236549#236549"]Times have changed - comparisons to something that happened 80 years ago isn't a very helpful exercise.[/quote]

It isn't an irrelevant observation in a discussion about relative suffering and potential starvation in a war zone, but I concede we are more sentimental than previous generations.

For the record, generic observations about trite inconsistencies and human failings are fine. Insulting individuals is generally less well received.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

David Mills — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:41:39 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236547#236547"]I had a client tell me once how she remembered the queue down the street as people took their pets to the PDSA to be euthanased at the outbreak of WW2. I don't know if it was a government mandate, but it certainly made sense to reduce the number of mouths to feed and prevent suffering. [/quote]

Indeed, about 750000 animals were killed at the start of WWII. It wasn't a mandate. Many were rehomed to the countryside. Contemporary historical analysis of it was that it was largely unnecessary - whilst the RPSCA and the PDSA carried out most of the euthanasias, Battersea refused and instead fed and cared for 145000 animals. Most owners in retrospect regretted doing it, and could have kept their pets. There's a good book on this by Hilda Kean "The Great Cat and Dog Massacre" which explores it in more detail.

Owners were also encouraged to buy a captive bolt and do it at home. Times have changed - comparisons to something that happened 80 years ago isn't a very helpful exercise.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

David Mills — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:33:04 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236531#236531"] I think if we're putting manpower, money or resources into a dangerous area I'd much rather they put that effort to saving people and just shot the animals that were being left behind. I don't want animals to suffer, but I want people to suffer less.[/quote]

Eeek, quite a broad statement.

Leaving aside who "we" are, apart from to say it's probably a handful of volunteers who believe it is a moral thing to do, your argument suggests that animals are being taken out instead of humans, which is a fallacy.

Are you sure you want all people to suffer less? Singer would disagree with you in several ways, but the ability of babies to suffer compared to a dog is possibly less; similarly those with limited mental faculties. Criminals, murderers, rapists, paedophiles....? Unless you are saying that by virtue of being human there is a divine ability to suffer more than any animal? In which case have you nailed the sentience problem?

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236539#236539"]I was asking why the welfare of pets seems to take priority over other animals.[/quote]

I'm not sure it does - it's is likely a pragmatic approach in that pets are easier to transport in greater numbers, and more quickly. They likely also mean more to their owners who have had their lives upside down.

Apologies if I misread your statement - it is something I have seen banded about, you just took the focus of my ire.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Jill Butterworth — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:24:32 GMT

I had a client tell me once how she remembered the queue down the street as people took their pets to the PDSA to be euthanased at the outbreak of WW2. I don't know if it was a government mandate, but it certainly made sense to reduce the number of mouths to feed and prevent suffering.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Clive Ansell — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 10:58:24 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236530#236530"]

Clive Ansell said:
Does, or should, the welfare of pets take priority over farm animals, horses, or even wildlife?

This is a twee, silly statement that I see a lot.

Its predicate is a pseudo-Christian idea that human life is paramount and it flows from this “essential truth” to become a moral norm that human life always and absolutely takes precedent and therefore any - literally any - attempt at saving non human life can be questioned in a pseudo philosophical way.

It is the cliff face fallacy - if a baby and a dog were hanging off a cliff etc.

[/quote]

No it isn't, it is a perfectly reasonable question. It is not a statement.

I was not suggesting or asking about comparing human to animal life at all, or whether or not human life should take priority over that of animals. I was referring solely to animal welfare.

I was asking why the welfare of pets seems to take priority over other animals. I know it makes great media fodder, and western society over humanises pets, but that aside is the welfare of pets more important?

Steve in his response to my question retorts that he will rescue 45 sows, foxes and badgers, but joking aside is their welfare, wellbeing and suffering any less or less important than that of pets?

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236530#236530"]Coming from a person that has decided to dedicate their career to improving animal welfare rather than being a doctor, dentist, carer, human nurse, social worker, nursery worker etc etc etc it is truly, utterly bizarre.[/quote]

But, that's precisely why I asked the question. I became a vet, and swore an oath to work for and promote the welfare of all animals, not just pets.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Michael Woodhouse — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 01:21:54 GMT

David Mills - I dedicate my career to keeping the delicious animals alive and healthy long enough so that we can eat them and consume their produce. I think if we're putting manpower, money or resources into a dangerous area I'd much rather they put that effort to saving people and just shot the animals that were being left behind. I don't want animals to suffer, but I want people to suffer less.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

David Mills — Fri, 11 Mar 2022 00:28:46 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind/236461#236461"]Does, or should, the welfare of pets take priority over farm animals, horses, or even wildlife? [/quote]

This is a twee, silly statement that I see a lot.

It is the cliff face fallacy - if a baby and a dog were hanging off a cliff etc.

Coming from a person that has decided to dedicate their career to improving animal welfare rather than being a doctor, dentist, carer, human nurse, social worker, nursery worker etc etc etc it is truly, utterly bizarre.

Grow up.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 23:16:09 GMT

Haha Steve, I don't know if it's because I had a glass of wine but your post did make me laugh. Thank you

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Steve Hallahan — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 21:19:08 GMT

Hi Clive,

I've passed on your excellent, pertinent questions and the people who are risking their lives to save pet owner's beloved pets - you know, the kind of pet owners who pay the vet bills that pay your wages? - have decided to leave the abandoned pets behind and take back 45 sows that they've "rescued" from a pig farm 200 kilometers from the warzone (in case the shelling spreads) and as many foxes and badgers as they can catch.

Thanks for your support!

Steve

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 12:09:03 GMT

We can't tell other people how to think, everyone is different. I personally would think children first, pets second, farm animals last. Many horses are actually pets but for me also food in times of war. But the beauty of this is that a good deed is a good deed.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Bob Russell — Thu, 10 Mar 2022 10:27:17 GMT

Too big a disaster to worry about the welfare of every animal in Ukraine. Individuals can do only so much.

I applaud anyone trying to do anything to help even if the results are severely limited.

My wife was in tears because there was a German Shepherd shown, homeless. Our household is GSD free at present but we cannot put the world right!

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Clive Ansell — Wed, 09 Mar 2022 13:17:48 GMT

[quote userid="21925" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30215/ukrainian-pets-left-behind"]

Update posted below with contact details of people trying to get animals out of Ukraine in case you have any requests from friends or clients.

A large transport left Ireland today with per food and blankets for refugee animals that have arrived in Poland and when delivered will transport pets in need from Western Ukraine to Poland.

[/quote]

Is this just for pets?

Does, or should, the welfare of pets take priority over farm animals, horses, or even wildlife?

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Steve Hallahan — Wed, 09 Mar 2022 01:18:58 GMT

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Steve Hallahan — Sat, 05 Mar 2022 10:40:41 GMT

Hi everyone,

FVE , the Federation of Veterinarians in Europe, have put together a hub where you can offer help to Ukrainian pets, vets and their families.

www.VetsForUkraine.com

Steve

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Julian Earl — Thu, 03 Mar 2022 21:42:39 GMT

This is really sad and upsetting! I cannotimagine a situation when I would leave my pets behind in a crisis! No matter what!! :(

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Steve Hallahan — Tue, 01 Mar 2022 14:54:21 GMT

Thanks, Bob. FECAVA is in contact with the head of the Ukrainian SAVA, who has remained behind, so we have a good point of contact.

I'm guessing that getting goods and money into Ukraine by normal channels will be difficult or impossible for the foreseeable future. One option I'm considering is traveling to the border with Poland myself in a couple of weeks; another is to transfer funds to a very prominent, well known vet in Poland, which would give greater transparency. I just haven't approached them about it yet!

It may all be moot if GoFundMe don't approve the campaign. I'll let you know.

RE: Ukrainian Pets Left Behind

Bob Russell — Tue, 01 Mar 2022 14:30:46 GMT

Romania, Poland and Hungary have suspended the need for pet paperwork to allow refuges to leave the Ukraine.

The problem I see is pets being left behind are in a war zone and charities will be unable to function at present.

Good luck!