CPD Tie in/Shared risk

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Michael Woodhouse — Sat, 05 Feb 2022 15:12:11 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/30176/cpd-tie-in-shared-risk/235666#235666"]Realistically, how likely would you be to recoup the cost anyway? Most employees aren't going to voluntarily surrender that amount of money when they're leaving, it is more than any outstanding pay cheque, and would you really take them to court? I'd be interested to know if anyone has ever recouped CPD costs? [/quote]

It would depend on the circumstances for me. I agree that I don't want to force someone to work for me who doesn't want to be there, but equally doing these things are expensive in terms of course costs, resources and time. I would happily invest in staff, but the investment is not entirely altruistic and I do want a return on that, like any investment.

It's nothing specific to sign, it's there in all our employment contracts. As I said before - it would depend on the circumstances what I did if someone wanted to leave. If they had worked with me for a while, were leaving on good terms and going on to better things, then no. If they want a new qualification, plan on setting up next door and stealing as many of my clients as they can - then see you in court.

I know of various vets who have had enhanced maternity package based on similar conditions - going back for another year or two after the baby etc. Common with VN training too.

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Glenn Hodgson — Sat, 05 Feb 2022 08:36:04 GMT

Thank for the range of input folks, it is appreciated,

I know know most are called a "training agreement contract".

Dinu, we also dislike such and similar contracts. They are about as nice to write as a will or a partnership/directors agreement. I do think they are professional and reasonable though. Ours is based on valuing each member for the team. Both by making this level of development possible and by not asking the business, and in reflection the remainder of the team, to subsidise such a value if the individual were to leave.

Gillian, I would imagine many new employers would pay out such contracts anyway? Making them more of a safety net for the rest of the team/business than a tie in. I agree with your thought, no use at all having someone that does not want to be at work.

I agree with others £20k is a fair bit. Our Ultrasound scanner was more than this though. We are as happy to invest in good people as good kit.

Thanks again!

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 09:14:03 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/30176/cpd-tie-in-shared-risk/235600#235600"]The way I see it, if they want to go and stay only because of the contract then my business will suffer. 100%. [/quote]

This. I've never had any tie-ins because human nature dictates that making somebody feel they can't leave will in itself unsettle them. You really don't want someone within your walls who doesn't want to be there, and such a large financial penalty could certainly be a barrier to leaving. You also want your employee to think you have faith in their integrity.

Realistically, how likely would you be to recoup the cost anyway? Most employees aren't going to voluntarily surrender that amount of money when they're leaving, it is more than any outstanding pay cheque, and would you really take them to court? I'd be interested to know if anyone has ever recouped CPD costs?

I think you have to see it as part of their salary, and I would assume that even during their training the practice will gain an advantage because the staff member will be seeking work and experience they wouldn't otherwise be doing?

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 14:21:03 GMT

[quote userid="9035" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/30176/cpd-tie-in-shared-risk"]The CPD we are signing up for will cost the practice in excess of £20k. Both parties think a tie in contract of some type is fair. [/quote]

I enrolled two other vets on certificates and our CPD fund is unlimited if I believe the course to be beneficial to our business. I don't ask them to sign any contracts.

The way I see it, if they want to go and stay only because of the contract then my business will suffer. 100%.

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/30176/cpd-tie-in-shared-risk/235552#235552"]I'm not of any help, but my mind is boggling at what skills one gets for £20K that one can't get without £20k? [/quote]

The improve international certs. 10-13K and they give no discounts to private practices, only to corporates.

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/30176/cpd-tie-in-shared-risk/235561#235561"]why fund an associate to attain a qualification that is PURELY invested in him/her, when he/she is, immediately upon attaining it, at liberty to leave and use it in another practice, for their benefit.[/quote]

It depends on how you run your business. Wild west capitalism? The it makes no sense, everyone for himself but don't be surprised if the employee sees it as just a job.

Yes, some will leave. It's your fault then for not employing the right person in the first place.

Be a giver not a taker.

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Stephanie Wellings — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 07:15:26 GMT

I paid for my own certificate specifically to avoid having to sign something like this, but I knew I was at a point in my life when I would want to move on, and that I would be ruling myself out of opportunities elsewhere.

I think if your employee is happy to sign it, it’s a good indicator they are intending to be with you for the long term.

Obviously life does throw things up so what would you/they do if they left before the contract was up due to ill health, or wanted to go part time? (as opposed to leaving through choice)

In terms of amount/time - I would probably think it’s fair to base it on what the CPD will bring to the practice (so if they’re doing for instance a laparoscopy course, and you estimate that lap spays will earn your practice an extra £1k per month, then a 20 month tie in seems logical and fair, with a corresponding percentage depending on when they leave).

The other way to consider is they should still get their normal pay rises etc - if there’s a bit of ‘well we aren’t going to give you a pay rise because we are paying this CPD’ then not all of it should be payable back, because it wouldn’t be if it was their salary (not implying you would do this - just from personal experience!)

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Beats — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 22:29:04 GMT

That seems very reasonable, but for 20k I do wonder if I would be happy as an employer (I'm not an employer, so not generally my worry) with just 2 years tie-in. I guess it would come down to;

a) when the 2 years started (I'm assuming 20K worth of training will not be completed in a weekend... if we are talking completion after 3 years, then a 2 year tie-in after completion is probably reasonable as some of the value of a motivated vet will hopefully have been gained over 5 years at a cost of 4K a year, tax-deductible?); I have worked with RVNs that had a 2 year tie-in after completion and thought this reasonable.

b) whether I think the training is good value (if I thought the vet could learn these skills at a substantially lower cost with a little personal effort, I'd be less sympathetic)

c) how helpful the training would be to the business (either directly due to these skills allowing additional profits to be made or indirectly by retaining a motivated and capable vet during, and hopefully after, the training).

d) whether I thought I could pay the going market-rate of a 20K-trained vet once their training had been completed, and whether I would be able to continue to house the advanced skill service they wished to offer (would they need a better ultrasound machine, would they need a specialist anesthetist or a night vet to care for their cases etc).

d) how much I was happy to gamble and my general feelings regarding the actual individual and how much I was prepared to trust them; perhaps I might see them as a future partner in the practice and show good faith and trust at an early stage?

From an employee's perspective (I'm obviously a bit risk averse, which probably explains why I'm still an employee!!!), I would not personally be happy to sign up to a claw-back arrangement for 20K. This would be like taking a 20K loan to me, and should my life circumstances change unexpectedly, meaning continuing in my current employment was not an option, I would be heavily in debt - indeed I could be bankrupted and lose my home potentially? Or am I being overly paranoid. Or what happens if I am not able to complete the training and it cannot be refunded to my employer... I would personally prefer a wage cut during the time of training, with a promise of a wage-hike on completion, or 2-years after completion or whatever, to a claw-back if I was in this position - for others the thought of that would be hideous.

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

George Cooper — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 21:55:45 GMT

why fund an associate to attain a qualification that is PURELY invested in him/her, when he/she is, immediately upon attaining it, at liberty to leave and use it in another practice, for their benefit.

you just MUST have some form of "clawback" in the investment you are making otherwise ... ... ...

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 21:24:59 GMT

Our contract states a 24 month write off for CPD from completion. Reduces so that if leave ASAP pay back 100%, after 1 year 50% etc.

Obviously I wouldn't usually use it, but I have on one occasion where a new grad left within a month of all her TB/OV training.

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 20:59:48 GMT

We need an OMG button!

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Chris Milligan — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 19:19:00 GMT

Echo training and cardiology certificate can easily cost that much, some of the ortho, endoscopy and surgery courses too over several years.

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Beats — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 17:26:13 GMT

I'm not of any help, but my mind is boggling at what skills one gets for £20K that one can't get without £20k? Does this include the purchase of equipment for the practice that will become redundant if the individual leaves?

RE: CPD Tie in/Shared risk

Glenn Hodgson — Tue, 01 Feb 2022 16:40:23 GMT

I've found a "training agreement" on business gateway.

Any pointers still welcomed