Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Chris Milligan — Mon, 07 Feb 2022 23:08:04 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235680#235680"]I can catagorically say that there were partners to whom you also couldn't trust as far as you can throw them.[/quote]

Certainly agree - I've had and known dire non-corporate bosses too, which I did mention. It's not the vets, its the non-vets managing their profession. And yes, all corporates function the same way - rules of business are pretty straightforward.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Bob Russell — Fri, 04 Feb 2022 14:47:39 GMT

I don't see any particular digs at vets working under the corporate system. Perhaps a degree of sympathy towards those working in difficult circumstances.

The corporate model of buying up huge chunks of the profession has changed the structure of the veterinary world. The money was largely coming in and practice owners benefited. It is now expected that the investors require a return and this may be painful.

I saw a copy of an estimate for a very straight forward procedure that went on for two pages. The only thing that was not being charged for was the air the staff were breathing and the electricity used by the operating light. I ad not even considered charging for some of the things listed! The client declined to have the procedure done at all.

I believe it is a mess but little of it created by vets working in practice.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Kate Richardson — Fri, 04 Feb 2022 10:32:46 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235682#235682"]Yes, true the anti-corporate vibe here is quite strong but it's not an anti-vet -working-for-corporate vibe[/quote]

That's as maybe, doesn't stop it feeling like a dig at anyone who happens to be employed by a corporate. Like we're betraying the profession. Unless it's just me.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 04 Feb 2022 00:00:03 GMT

[quote userid="2180" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235686#235686"]Let's face it, the whole basis of setting up your own practice is to be able to pay others less for doing essentially the same job as you[/quote]

Not at all, the others don't have to manage staff or run a business which takes more out of you than just seeing clients. Staff forgets that a clinical director has to see clients, deal with the complaints against staff and run a business on sometimes not much bigger salary.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

jd2008 — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 22:25:35 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235677#235677"]I don't believe that is true. Most owners of independent practices charged what they needed to to made a comfortable income.[/quote]

But if they'd charged more they'd have been able to make a comfortable income AND pay their employees a half-decent salary

Let's face it, the whole basis of setting up your own practice is to be able to pay others less for doing essentially the same job as you. I encountered just as much greed in independent practice as I did in the corporate world. It's just on a larger, organised scale with corporates.

Having said that, the lack of professional accountability with corporatisation is disastrous. Even the pseudo-corporates, though,that were still run by vets had well-oiled mechanisms for throwing their assistant vets under a bus to keep those senior vets squeaky clean. In any part of life, as soon as an organisation gets big enough employees stop being people and start becoming things or *shudder* units.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 21:30:03 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235682#235682"]Neil, can we have a chat at lunch about this in 15 years? I'll buy the food[/quote]

I've met maybe 8 on this forum as a result of this forum (sorry Evelyn, dreadful grammar) and I've enjoyed every encounter, so why not

Neil

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 21:04:41 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235674#235674"]I'm really sick of the anti-corporate vibe on here.[/quote]

Yes, true the anti-corporate vibe here is quite strong but it's not an anti-vet -working-for-corporate vibe. The unfortunate truth is that corporatisation changes professions and not for the best.

I worked for Companion care- terrible experience, Vets Now in the middle and.CVS - loved it, I had an amazing clinical director who supported me and helped me develop. The hate is not about people, it's not about demonising the vets and nurses working for corporates, it's about the implications and consequences of corporatisation.

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235674#235674"]Maybe not all corporates need to be tarred with the same brush. [/quote]

They must be, corporates must be corporates to function, it can not be any other way.

Absolutely, there were money to be made in the past as well. That's why some I know retired owning multiple properties before the corporate money arrived.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235680#235680"]Vets are highly driven achievers who have never known failure, it's not only the boardroom where behaviour that you have encountered is apparant. There are a lot of very interesting posters on here that are from corporates, they wouldn't be working for them if they were all bad, it's across the board[/quote]

Neil, can we have a chat at lunch about this in 15 years? I'll buy the food

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 20:55:03 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235676#235676"]My anticorporate vibe can be distilled to a single sentence; you can't trust them as far as you can kick them.[/quote]

Hi Chris

I'd rather not go into delails on an open forum, but I see you qualified in 2010 so your experience has corporates in the picture

I qualified and cut my teeth as an assistant in the 90's. I can catagorically say that there were partners to whom you also couldn't trust as far as you can throw them. I suffered 3 times, that's why I locum

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235674#235674"]I'm really sick of the anti-corporate vibe on here.[/quote]

I feel Kate has a point here

Vets are highly driven achievers who have never known failure, it's not only the boardroom where behaviour that you have encountered is apparant. There are a lot of very interesting posters on here that are from corporates, they wouldn't be working for them if they were all bad, it's across the board

Neil

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Jill Butterworth — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 19:46:13 GMT

[quote userid="13609" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235670#235670"]t a lot of independent practices didn't work very economically and frequently charged to little. [/quote]

I don't believe that is true. Most owners of independent practices charged what they needed to to made a comfortable income. Yes, they could have charged more in many cases, but often didn't (and some still don't) because they had/have a social conscience. It was virtually unheard of for a vet to go out of business in the past which is why vet practices were targeted. Prices to clients have hugely increased because there is another layer of people to to pay, plus the servicing the loan to buy the practice.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Chris Milligan — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 19:18:38 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235674#235674"]Do you have any figures/evidence to back this up? [/quote]

Nope - does anybody? I've had years working with/for them and I know what my vets tell me - that's all I can go on. As you allude to, everyone's experience is different. My anticorporate vibe can be distilled to a single sentence; you can't trust them as far as you can kick them. If people understand that then you can play ball with them

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Kate Richardson — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 17:27:58 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235644#235644"] vets by and large dislike working for them or eventually dislike working for them[/quote]

Do you have any figures/evidence to back this up? has anyone done a survey of what percentage of vets working for a corporate versus independent practice are happy with their job on the whole or not?

I'm really sick of the anti-corporate vibe on here. It matters not to me who owns the business, in my case IVC, what matters to me is that I am have good managers and clinical freedom. Management on the whole is far better and fairer than the independent practices I worked for in the past. Have also worked briefly for a different corporate which was not a great experience (CVS). Maybe I just got lucky this time. Maybe not all corporates need to be tarred with the same brush.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Joyce Whitehead — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 16:23:23 GMT

I think clients are much more aware of corporates nowadays. We have two other local independent practices (one very large, one smaller) and in nearby towns two have sold out in recent years. Having rarely had clients move from them before we have had a flood in the last two years, and lots of clients comment on the fact they wanted an independent practice. (We also do our own ooh but so do these two corporates at present). So much so we have an extra vet now and are much busier than we used to be.

i think the increase in “only in it for the money comments” are more of a social media phenomena, one person says it and the sheep agree.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Andreas Ege — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 11:24:45 GMT

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235593#235593"]On a similar note, clients are becoming more aware of Corporates, and this is where the "They only care about the money" comes from.[/quote]

Nah, I've heard that one years before corporates were coming up, even before I went to vet school. Corporatization might add to that notion but it certainly hasn't caused it.

While I agree, that in some, maybe even a lot of instances, corporates drive the cost, in quite a few cases the perception of that gets amplified by the fact that a lot of independent practices didn't work very economically and frequently charged to little.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 08:00:27 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235638#235638"]Sorry, I dispute just about every one of those assertions.[/quote]

Fair enough.

I can only know my own experiences in the suburban North West of England in the late 80s and early 90s.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 07:58:50 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235644#235644"]were/are they? how are we defining success here?[/quote]

Yes - judged simply by the number of vets who became, and are, JVPs and clinical directors. The business model depended on someone willing to run the practice as a boss, but without outright ownership. They didn't have any issue finding them in large numbers.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 03 Feb 2022 07:56:36 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235642#235642"]I'm not one for harking back the past in the main, but I did similar in my first job 14 years ago...and loved it. I actually found being on call strangely exciting.[/quote]

Agree. I also found a lot more job satisfaction in those days. I was just talking about the pay - it wasn't as generous as it seemed when number of hours was taken into account. If you included time spent working whilst on call, it was generally the lowest of anyone working in the practice!

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Chris Milligan — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 23:09:30 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235646#235646"]I hear this a lot, on this forum and elsewhere, but what are the numbers? Are they meaningful? [/quote]

I agree - I'm not suggesting corporate practice is on its last legs; quite the opposite - they will, over time, find other ways to keep their clinics working and making money, but they'll wreck what many of us recognise as the profession in doing so.

I'm a little more optimistic on this side of the Atlantic actually - clients are (and this may surprise you) more wary of corporate owners here, the big companies are younger than many of the British/South African ones that control most of the market in the UK and vets get paid way better here and it's quite realistic for many of them to start new clinics (and many do), and many people starting clinics are profoundly anticorporate and actively search for other vets to partner/buy in/sell to - it's encouraging. Still, many retirees are cashing out with the equity companies simply because of the prices they're offering

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

David Mills — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 22:52:34 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235644#235644"]if enough vets do this they have noone to sign off on their boxed in treatment plans[/quote]

Is this realistic though? I'm talking UK here, aware you work across the water.

We will see record numbers of new graduates in the next few years here and the majority of these will be hoovered up by corps. Some of their new grad programmes are very good in all honesty - they have a large presence at careers fairs, sponsor final year lectures and residencies, and in the newer universities provide the majority of final year rotations. V4P are now paying final years an almost salary if they sign up to join them for ?2 years post graduation. In a weird twist it is a little like the NHS where junior doctors did 80+h per week and kept the hospitals running (aware this has changed somewhat now) - there is no reason to think this business model won't be successful in the vet sector. Someone leaves after 2/3y of broken promises? Welcome the next cohort in.

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235644#235644"]Even clients are starting to cotton on to not wanting corporate clinics, and not just because of the cost either[/quote]

I hear this a lot, on this forum and elsewhere, but what are the numbers? Are they meaningful? If the corps have 60-70% of market share there are towns where there is no option but a corp. And how many animal owners truly care? After all, people still shop 95% of the time at Tesco, Primark, KiwkFit etc (aware some of these compete on price etc) but surely most people generally go to their nearest service provider or shop? Not sure. Would be an interesting project for someone.

In short, I don't think there's the groundswell of change coming from within the profession (new grads will soon outnumber those graduated >10y) or from consumers (apart from the most conscientious, or those looking for cheaper - note this is region specific and there are areas e.g. what Michael has described where it does matter but most pets live in cities). Which leaves us....where?

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Chris Milligan — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 22:37:28 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235637#235637"]there is a reason corporates were successful[/quote]

were/are they? how are we defining success here? an [insert name] big player went bankrupt not that long ago due to its staggering workforce mismanagement and lack of investment, vets by and large dislike working for them or eventually dislike working for them. If I fall out with an independent clinic I get a job down the road. If I fall out with a corporate I never work in any of their branches again - if enough vets do this they have noone to sign off on their boxed in treatment plans. That basically what happened on the shop floor with [insert name]. Other groups have paid over the odds for pet food/toy stores where teenagers give out questionable advice to punters before and after they reach the clinic at the back of the shop and vet staff feel like they're working retail. Staff sequential find that they just can't trust their non-vet bosses due to the doublespeak and empty promises handed out daily. Even clients are starting to cotton on to not wanting corporate clinics, and not just because of the cost either

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

David Mills — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 22:34:39 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235641#235641"]the first and most powerful veterinary corporations in the UK were founded by cartels of vets - and I'm not sure the RCVS regulatory changes back then would have made one jot of difference to where the money was coming from; equity firms have a way of seeping into everything whether you want them to or not[/quote]

Yes, maybe, as I say I'm too young to appreciate when the changes and steamrollering started happening.

The key difference is that a vet owner - whether that be a large group like some of the London ones - was responsible and answerable to the college. What we have now is multinational owners who aren't. The RCVS's power is pretty miniscule - all they have say over is about 20k vets - but how the business is run, the focus on animal welfare, pricing, ultimate responsibility - none.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

David Mills — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 22:31:42 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235639#235639"]

I know what you mean, but if your first jobs were anything like mine, I doubt it!

I worked 5 days a week with a half day every 6th week, after doing a full weekend on call. I was on a 1 in 3 rota for weeknights and weekends.

I make that approximately 50 hours a week PLUS on call.

I may have got about 22k for that, but even without on call that works out at £8.50 an hour.

A vet now gets about £30k for a 40 hour week. That's about £14.50 an hour.

From my calculations, those salaries are pretty comparable ... Except I worked approximately every 3rd night!!!

[/quote]

I'm not one for harking back the past in the main, but I did similar in my first job 14 years ago...and loved it. I actually found being on call strangely exciting.

BUT it was a different time. The calls you got were always preceded with "I'm sorry to call but..." and some nights you would get none (mixed practice, about 15k clients including farms). I just think the expectation these days is monstrous. Maybe it is the advent of the internet, instant gratification, maybe it's the business structure ("I pay high prices in the day, so..."), the shift from personable practices (we never employed locums in my first practice) to a true service industry model, disassociation between care-giver (vet) and owner/animal. Who knows?

Things weren't much very different when I moved to London and worked in charity initially, up until the last 5 years or so, when the phone sometimes never stops overnight. Similar client base around 20k. But the nonsense that gets phoned through these days compared to 10 years ago is a world away.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Chris Milligan — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 22:30:17 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235629#235629"]justification in allowing non-vet ownership but I can't see[/quote]

the first and most powerful veterinary corporations in the UK were founded by cartels of vets - and I'm not sure the RCVS regulatory changes back then would have made one jot of difference to where the money was coming from; equity firms have a way of seeping into everything whether you want them to or not

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 22:23:22 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235574#235574"]With vets they seem to try and recruit newer grads on to their own schemes, with low salaries. Pay is no better, in fact probably worse, than it was when I qualified 26 years ago.[/quote]

I know what you mean, but if your first jobs were anything like mine, I doubt it!

I worked 5 days a week with a half day every 6th week, after doing a full weekend on call. I was on a 1 in 3 rota for weeknights and weekends.

I make that approximately 50 hours a week PLUS on call.

I may have got about 22k for that, but even without on call that works out at £8.50 an hour.

A vet now gets about £30k for a 40 hour week. That's about £14.50 an hour.

From my calculations, those salaries are pretty comparable ... Except I worked approximately every 3rd night!!!

Vet salaries are indeed too low across the board, but the reason for the apparent drop is more to do with vets now working less hours!

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 22:22:18 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235637#235637"]Practices BITD were primitive places. 'Toys' were rare, non-vet staff were, in the main, unqualified and paid very poorly, vets were salaried and were also paid poorly, buildings were small and often owned outright and drugs were cheap as chips (but with large mark-ups). Almost nothing was referred and taking bloods was unusual ... thin crispy cats were just PTS.[/quote]

Sorry, I dispute just about every one of those assertions.

I was there.

RE: Is this a bridge too far for our profession?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 02 Feb 2022 22:13:02 GMT

The reason for the massive increase in vet fees is multifactorial and certainly shouldn't be blamed totally on the corporate business structure.

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235593#235593"]In my practice I just have to pay the overheads, the vets and nurses (and myself!), but corporates have to pay shareholders, managers, HR managers etc etc,so of course they need to get those funds in. [/quote]

But corporates often have lower overheads and economies of scale. If independent practices employ a practice manager, accountant, fire safety company, HR consultant, pay someone to produce marketing material etc., then their costs will LP be comparable. It is the fact that vet practice owners often do all these jobs themselves as well as their clinical job that keeps the overheads low!

Practices BITD were primitive places. 'Toys' were rare, non-vet staff were, in the main, unqualified and paid very poorly, vets were salaried and were also paid poorly, buildings were small and often owned outright and drugs were cheap as chips (but with large mark-ups). Almost nothing was referred and taking bloods was unusual ... thin crispy cats were just PTS.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30172/is-this-a-bridge-too-far-for-our-profession/235629#235629"]Yes people could set up, and they will, but looking at the article at the start of this thread would you really want the disaffected and the moaners (who are probably the same people who moan about the NHS etc)? [/quote]

This is the crux of the matter. As David says, there is a reason corporates were successful - there was a lack of people willing in invest a large amount of money to set up or buy into a vet practice. Practice owners wanted out, and newer vets wanted practice 'ownership' but with a lower level of responsibility and investment.

There's still nothing to stop anyone having an independent practice and charging as little as they wish. But many vets who complain about the high level of vet fees also want higher wages working fewer hours themselves.