BVA calls out the RCVS

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 10 Dec 2021 15:54:28 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234110#234110"]

There are many different reasons that someone might not have kept their CPD up to date, and addressing this should be a private and confidential matter.

Arlo Guthrie said:
But then it's not hard to keep up with CPD (is it?)

It could be.

If one is working full time maybe 40 - 50 hours a week, and possibly providing OOH cover too, as well as having family and childcare commitments at home, it could be very difficult

[/quote]

After the year we've had, staffing issues, massively increased workloads and covering other practice's OOH, I looked at my CPD record and noticed it was woefully short. I have booked CPD days to just sit at home and do webinars on days where my wife is at work as well and my toddler son is at nursery so I don't get distracted.

Yes, webinars are easy access and can be done at home, but in an evening after 8-12 hours of work (nights when on call could be up to 18 on horribly busy ones) and then putting a child to bed, I don't really want to be doing more vet work.

Previously I was doing a cert which was 100 hours per module so didn't need to worry about it, now I have to remember to actively look for CPD to do.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Louise Buckley — Thu, 09 Dec 2021 22:18:26 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234129#234129"]All you need is a one liner, the sort of thing most of us say to someone as we walk out of an interesting/dull presentation. Refelction can be, "interesting topic, badly presented"![/quote]

Exactly. This is about all I do for my reflection. I tick that box, that is all. I personally don't think reflecting on my CPD for the purpose of an RCVS CPD requirement is a good use of my time. I don't feel any more empowered as an academic because I have 'reflected' within the CPD reflection box.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:46:22 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234178#234178"]My apologies[/quote]

none needed.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Julian Earl — Wed, 01 Dec 2021 14:16:55 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234174#234174"]m not sure why you disagree with me when your statement above is exactly what I was getting at![/quote]

Thanks Gillin, I've had a re-read and a re-think! ookslike my disagree has changed toan agree after all!!? Hopefully that is better?

My apologies...xx! TTFN!!

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 30 Nov 2021 15:07:52 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234169#234169"]One problem with the oath is that most people think that we are "just Animal doctors, treating disease when our full remit is much, much broader!![/quote]

I'm not sure why you disagree with me when your statement above is exactly what I was getting at!

We spend most of our time on prophylaxis, herd health, export, drug research etc etc ...

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Julian Earl — Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:15:06 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234163#234163"]But the veterinary profession is not just there to restore animals to health - I'd go so far as to say it isn't even the bulk of what the profession does.[/quote]

Sorry Gillian,but Ibeg to differ! If I recall correctly we all swore to protect the welfare of animals, whether that welfare is freedom from disease or prevent abuse and pain, and general maltreatment! Health is just a part of that, surely?? We could spend a long time discussing and debating the meaning of welfare, but for the purpose of this discussion I would ass me that we all agree on good/bad or indifferent welfare in any particular case? I would suggest that, as a result of this wide meaning under the oath it is very much the bulk of what the profession does, both individually and as a body of professionals?

One problem with the oath is that most people think that we are "just Animal doctors, treating disease when our full remit is much, much broader!!

Thanks for reading!

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

George Cooper — Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:54:31 GMT

We’ll just need to be polar opposites then!!

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 29 Nov 2021 16:02:48 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234146#234146"]For this profession it SHOULD mean that we adjudge our individual behaviour to OUR OWN standards - with no mention of the Public Interest whatsoever, where there is zero interest in what we do other than getting creatures restored to health. [/quote]

But the veterinary profession is not just there to restore animals to health - I'd go so far as to say it isn't even the bulk of what the profession does.

Working to the public interest, and being held to a standard that maintains confidence in our profession, is critical. Even if every vet in the country agrees with a DC decision, it means nothing if 'the public' then fails to trust us. Animals can never get adequate care if owners/farmers/DEFRA staff aren't looking to us to provide a professional service. They will look elsewhere...

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

George Cooper — Fri, 26 Nov 2021 13:00:05 GMT

The *historical* definition of a "Profession" was that it was sufficiently *proper* in its behaviour that it was allowed to be self-governing. That meant that it set its own standards and then policed them accordingly. Sadly the expression describing doing something professionally has been bastardised into applying to everyone from sewage contractors to hi-flying airline pilots, and has come to mean, in essence, to do something to a high standard.

For this profession it SHOULD mean that we adjudge our individual behaviour to OUR OWN standards - with no mention of the Public Interest whatsoever, where there is zero interest in what we do other than getting creatures restored to health. That totally misaligned figment of fevered collective imaginings, The Stace, jst happened to be the grit in RCVS Vaseline at completely the wrong time, but was slipped in because, at that time, there were so many with personal ambitions and powerful oratory abilities sitting on Council - and MANY of them were practitioners. And a compliant Registrar.

It was from that era that the swingeing CPD rules began to throttle, along with the loosening of ownership of practices - and much more.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Bob Russell — Fri, 26 Nov 2021 12:48:45 GMT

I believe Arlo is being realistic rather than a mouthpiece.

The election of corporate leaning council members (and the crazy failure to keep Kit Sturgess on council) is seen by many as a problem. Suspicion about lack of independence appears quite widespread.

Stace and his slant away from the professionals and towards the consumer champion bought no friends from the profession and none from the general public.

I am not at all sure how the college can improve the situation but a first step has to be to make the fear of the DC much less and the respect more!

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Nov 2021 11:19:54 GMT

[quote userid="8182" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234143#234143"]Arlo. It is one thing to establish and maintain cordial relations with the RCVS but your post seems to confirm that you have become a mouthpiece for it[/quote]

Eamon McAllister

I promise you that is not the case!

In fact, nothing could be further from the truth.

I also don't quite understand which of my comments you think make me a mouthpiece (presumably spewing bullshit!)

I said I believe that the people I have met at the College are well-motivated. I believe that to be true. The College is often accused of doing things in bad faith. I do not believe that to be the case. I think it gets things wrong from time to time, and occasionally it scores the most monumental 'own goal', but I don't think it is out to get people. I'll stand by that, without being a mouthpiece.

I also said that I worked in a regulated profession myself, and I didn't expect much support from the regulator. I lived more in fear of reprimand. That too is fair enough. There has been a lot of debate over the years about the uneasy balance between being a membership organisation and a regulator. It's a difficult one. The College has, in my opinion, erred on the side of being the regulator, and I think they have got the balance wrong, actually, in the sense that it is in the public interest to make sure that vets are properly supported. But equally I can see how that could compromise its role as regulator.

Lastly, the voting numbers being in line with other professions is a fact. Doesn't make me a mouthpiece!

Ironically, I am currently bothering people at the College about something I am investigating ... and apparently not winning any friends over it (so it seems ironic I am being described as a mouthpiece!)

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Eamon McAllister — Fri, 26 Nov 2021 10:59:00 GMT

Arlo. It is one thing to establish and maintain cordial relations with the RCVS but your post seems to confirm that you have become a mouthpiece for it because those comments are exactly what it would say in response to my criticism.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Bob Russell — Thu, 25 Nov 2021 18:02:56 GMT

All I want from a governing body is that it works on behalf of the profession. It is in our interests for patients to be treated appropriately.

We have the BVA?BSAVA and VDS to provide protection for the individuals. Thankfully the vast majority of us care deeply about what we do and how we do it. Vets are often their own harshest critics which is why they need a supportive environment to work in.

We cannot do without a DC but we really do rely on it being fair on the vets involved. Sadly too many vets feel they are sitting ducks and this is a disaster of communication.

Stace got things wrong and the change in emphasis has hurt the profession whilst only emboldening the professional complainers IMO.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Iain Richards — Thu, 25 Nov 2021 16:13:30 GMT

I'm grateful that I belong to a self governing profession. The college works on behalf of "the profession" as a concept, not the protection of the individual. I've often stated that I feel the disciplinary process is worth having, as it protects us all. I hope I feel like that should "the envelope" arrive. Equally the college works on behalf of "the public" but not as a champion of consumer rights, and especially not as those apply to an individual. This was Mr Stace's big mistake.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:50:51 GMT

[quote userid="8182" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234130#234130"]I don’t think that you are qualified to speak unless you have been a member and subject to the rules and regulations.[/quote]

I'm not sure it's a binary thing. I've been working alongside (!) the profession long enough to have an opinion. You can argue, as you have, and you may well be right, that my opinion is not well enough informed. My point is just that I've met a lot of people at the College over the years, and Councillors, and I see people trying to do their best. Not always getting it right (who does), but not apparently with all the bad motives they are accused of.

[quote userid="8182" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234130#234130"]I never at any time felt supported by the RCVS and fear of being named and shamed by it cast a shadow over my career.[/quote]

For a while I was a pilot. I never felt supported by the CAA. In my short career, I lived in fear of cocking something up and losing my license.

[quote userid="8182" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234130#234130"]I never at any time felt supported by the RCVS[/quote]

Yes, but is it the job of the RCVS to support you? Surely that is more for BSAVA? or BVA? I've always thought it problematic that you are M's of your regulator. If you are a member of something, you expect something of it.

Incidentally, I personally think it is the role of the RCVS to support its members, and that is compatible with acting in the public interest. But I see it has a difficult line to walk. I think history will probably judge that Nick Stace took the organisation in a too consumer-centric direction.

[quote userid="8182" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234130#234130"]Remember please that at election time every year voter “turnout” hovers around 22% and in the recent past has been as low as 17%. This is not so much a mandate as an annual vote of no confidence. [/quote]

As far as I know, it is broadly in line with other other regulators - I don't think turkeys very often vote for christmas!

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Eamon McAllister — Thu, 25 Nov 2021 10:06:38 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234118#234118"]Personally, I think that drawing comparisons with a wolf is deeply unhelpful. I don't think that the RCVS is out to get VSs in that sense. Nor do I think it exists for its self-preservation. I think it's a well-meaning organisation (which is not to say I think it gets everything right by any stretch).[/quote]

I don’t think that you are qualified to speak unless you have been a member and subject to the rules and regulations. I never at any time felt supported by the RCVS and fear of being named and shamed by it cast a shadow over my career.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234118#234118"]Some have precious little contact and are entirely indifferent. [/quote]

I have never met anyone who has been indifferent. Mostly they have “precious little contact” because they are unwilling to engage with an organisation that they disapprove of and are apathetic about. Remember please that at election time every year voter “turnout” hovers around 22% and in the recent past has been as low as 17%. This is not so much a mandate as an annual vote of no confidence.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Iain Richards — Thu, 25 Nov 2021 09:12:03 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234119#234119"]

I learn all the time. Every case that gets discussed. Every referral we make.

Where I struggle is in the recording. I am pretty up to date in most things but of course struggle to put it into action!!

[/quote]

All you need is a one liner, the sort of thing most of us say to someone as we walk out of an interesting/dull presentation. Refelction can be, "interesting topic, badly presented"!

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:54:11 GMT

I learn all the time. Every case that gets discussed. Every referral we make.

Where I struggle is in the recording. I am pretty up to date in most things but of course struggle to put it into action!!

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:43:05 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234114#234114"]The issue is not "doing" it. The issue is "recording" it. This has been made increasingly cumbersome.[/quote][quote userid="12930" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234116#234116"]Quite, but "recording" it requires a lot of thinking. Not necessarily the good type of thinking either.[/quote]

Good point.

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234115#234115"]Only those with the lived experience can accurately understand the vicissitudes you are trying to relate to.[/quote]

I disagree.

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234115#234115"]Asking VS to ‘trust’ the College is asking sheep to trust a wolf. [/quote]

Nothing is quite that black and white. The College performs a multitude of roles, some of which I don't doubt that even you would trust it to do reasonably well (although, then again, it's you, perhaps not!)

Which leads me to another point. Trust is constantly changing thing which is hugely variable from one person to the next. You simply cannot argue that all VSs distrust the RCVS as a sheep would distrust a wolf. Some have precious little contact and are entirely indifferent. At the other end of the scale, there are those who are almost rabidly distrustful. Most people sit somewhere on the spectrum.

Personally, I think that drawing comparisons with a wolf is deeply unhelpful. I don't think that the RCVS is out to get VSs in that sense. Nor do I think it exists for its self-preservation. I think it's a well-meaning organisation (which is not to say I think it gets everything right by any stretch).

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Clive Ansell — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:29:26 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234116#234116"]Quite, but "recording" it requires a lot of thinking. Not necessarily the good type of thinking either.[/quote]

Not only recording, but we now need to "reflect" on it too, and respond to the following questions. This also requires time and effort

1. How did this CPD relate to your learning objectives and plan?

2. What are the key things you learned?

3. What impact has the CPD undertaken had on you as a professional or in your role?

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Beats — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:24:00 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234113#234113"]So I'd have thought you would be able to accumulate quite a lot of CPD time almost without thinking. [/quote]

Quite, but "recording" it requires a lot of thinking. Not necessarily the good type of thinking either.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Alastair Welch — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:22:51 GMT

Arlo,

To be clear you do not work ‘in the profession’: you may work in the veterinary industry; you may work with the profession but to be in the profession you need MRCVS after your name. This might seem as if I am making a trivial point regarding your poor phraseology but the distinction is important. Only those with the lived experience can accurately understand the vicissitudes you are trying to relate to. Asking VS to ‘trust’ the College is asking sheep to trust a wolf. The College exist for their self-preservation please don’t be fooled by their woolly outer garments.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Beats — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:19:19 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234113#234113"]s it happens, I was thinking some more, and 40 minutes or so a week. Yeah, maybe that is a lot when you're working your arse off, although just about anything counts as CPD. Reading Vet Times counts as CPD. So I'd have thought you would be able to accumulate quite a lot of CPD time almost without thinking. [/quote]

The issue is not "doing" it. The issue is "recording" it. This has been made increasingly cumbersome.

We learn perhaps 70% of what we are learning by doing our job. If you are working, you are learning and continuously developing as a professional. Hence why starting back to work after a break of a year or more is much more difficult than continuing non-stop, no matter how many "back to work" courses you may attend.

For the remainder of our learning, it will be mostly "informal" learning. A small proportion of limited significance will be "formal" learning.

The RCVS recording system focuses and appears to elevate in importance the latter. This is not necessarily a bad thing (should this be the intention) as it is this part that would be missed by a busy working professional, but as there is no requirement for the recorded CPD to actually be "formal", it is perhaps a little misleading.

Consider then that, as an adult-learner, your concentration span is probably only about 20minutes for learning in a "formal" setting (as opposed to learning by working), especially if the direct application appears obscure (perhaps reading the first 3 chapters of Withrow's oncology for free on amazon kindle previews). Logging into RCVS 1CPD and "recording" this learning is likely to take, in real time, perhaps 7 minutes. Should you do this for every 20 minute bit of learning you do here and there, then you will instead be spending 13 minutes so there is time to log this learning. You can learn very little in 13 minutes. This would be a very inefficient approach to life.

Add to that the new idea that there is no longer a 3 year rolling average and the clock resets at midnight on New Years Eve, and you get a scramble around Christmas time to "record" RCVS CPD requirement. If the only punishment for not "recording" a years "CPD" was to have your name published on the RCVS website, then I dare say that is not much of a deterrent for a busy practitioner!

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 09:03:20 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234110#234110"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
But then it's not hard to keep up with CPD (is it?)

It could be.

[/quote][quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30073/bva-calls-out-the-rcvs/234111#234111"]I think that’s very individual-situation dependent. I know I’ve struggled to keep up with it this year….and I’m not working a 50hour week plus extra OOH shifts on top of that. Should I be named and shamed?[/quote]

Well, I'm not a vet of course, so no first hand experience of how difficult it is to find the time. But my point was really just that if the College produced a definitive list of what could cause you to be named on the website, then everyone would have the chance to debate the merits, as we are now.

Without that, there is a vacuum and everyone assumes the worst.

As it happens, I was thinking some more, and 40 minutes or so a week. Yeah, maybe that is a lot when you're working your arse off, although just about anything counts as CPD. Reading Vet Times counts as CPD. So I'd have thought you would be able to accumulate quite a lot of CPD time almost without thinking.

RE: BVA calls out the RCVS

janine redman — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 08:50:42 GMT

The problem is that if you are working hard and doing OOH the knowledge and experience you gain can be far more valuable than a lecture or webinar . Chatting with pathologists about difficult cases . Looking up options for complicated scenarios, discussing cases with colleagues , all often more useful than CPD on stuff you may never see