Climate change?? End-Game??

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 02 Dec 2021 09:05:18 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234187#234187"]Back when I was a proper vet (mixed) in the Lakes, I was amazed by the apparent sagacity of the Herdwicks. At turning out time, the older ewes 'show' the younger ones where to graze at different times of years on the fells, and it is passed down organically through the generations - they follow the same routes, graze the same areas, at different times of year and when I was up there last week, usefully for the shepherds/sheepdogs at tupping/collection they graze relatively close to the farms[/quote]

I remember that back in 2001 there were big concerns that this behaviour would be lost if whole flocks were culled due Foot and Mouth Disease as sheep brought in to re-stock from other areas wouldn't be able to learn where to graze when.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Clive Ansell — Thu, 02 Dec 2021 08:55:36 GMT

[quote userid="2675" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234179#234179"]And Karoo lamb is superior due to them eating aromatic herb type plants in the desert[/quote]

I've eaten goat in the Moroccan Anti-Atlas that grazes on wild thyme, very nice it was too.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

David Mills — Wed, 01 Dec 2021 23:26:17 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234177#234177"]I think it must be a taste thing. I think I read that horses have a 'grass map' in their head, so I would think all herbivores have such a thing in their memory, as what seems trivial to us must have huge importance to a browser.[/quote]

Yes I think this must have some truth.

Back when I was a proper vet (mixed) in the Lakes, I was amazed by the apparent sagacity of the Herdwicks. At turning out time, the older ewes 'show' the younger ones where to graze at different times of years on the fells, and it is passed down organically through the generations - they follow the same routes, graze the same areas, at different times of year and when I was up there last week, usefully for the shepherds/sheepdogs at tupping/collection they graze relatively close to the farms. Amazing breed - can survive upto a month under snow by eating their own wool. Pretty sheep too. And they go and spoil it all by getting stuck up crags and having to be rescued by rock climbers. Still, better than a Swaledale by some distance.

Animals (as are we) are motivated by hormones and homeostasis. They will graze the most nutritious parts, probably always have. Unfortunately humans have self-consciousness and desires and live in the position of being able to eat luxuriously (mostly) meaning they can eat pleasurable things to excess. But it would be madness to think that any animal has evolved without some inbuilt motivation to eat the 'right things' to stay alive, it's just us humans have made the wrong desirable things more accessible (see a cow with bloiat raiding the concentrate bin or any number of obese pets).

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Clive Ansell — Wed, 01 Dec 2021 17:13:18 GMT

[quote userid="2675" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234181#234181"]

The feedlot systems discussed earlier are for finishing for supermarket style economies so the USA, EU and some individual countries like Australia. Everyone else still has a either extensive systems or subsistence or get protein from sea or other sources so perhaps the comments from some of the developing countries that this is not their problem might have grain of truth??

Doesn't really help that these countries are chopping down their forests to provide decking on the latest tv garden show

[/quote]

Hypocrisy.

The westernised nations bleat about the environmental impact of developing countries, yet show little sign of reducing their extreme consumerism and excessive consumption.

My brother works in international shipping in the US, they move 30,000 shipping containers a day of goods from China to the USA. 1000's of tonnes of Chinese tat to sell in US shopping malls to feed their addiction to extreme shopping, consumption and waste. I wonder what percentage of it ends up in landfill sites within a year?

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Richard Carter — Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:40:59 GMT

So quick internet search:

world population just under 8 billion; China and India total 2.7 billion, USA 360 million

The whole of Europe is under 10% including Russia and all the Eastern European countries at 700 million, the EU about 350 million

Doesn't really help that these countries are chopping down their forests to provide decking on the latest tv garden show

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Stephen Pointing — Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:28:04 GMT

[quote userid="2675" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234179#234179"]herbivores searching out and eating bones[/quote]

You beat me to it Richard. I think much of the African continent is phosphorus deficient and the same applied to areas of the Middle East. Certainly if cattle could get access to old bones they would happily add them to their diet.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Richard Carter — Wed, 01 Dec 2021 16:21:31 GMT

It’s well known in poor phosphate regions in South Africa, herbivores searching out and eating bones (and getting botulism in the process)

And Karoo lamb is superior due to them eating aromatic herb type plants in the desert

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 30 Nov 2021 20:12:20 GMT

I think it must be a taste thing. I think I read that horses have a 'grass map' in their head, so I would think all herbivores have such a thing in their memory, as what seems trivial to us must have huge importance to a browser.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 30 Nov 2021 17:46:25 GMT

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234171#234171"]Do they "know" that they provide better nutrition for them - not as such but they certainly seem to prefer them to the very abundant whitegrass. [/quote]

It would be interesting to compare them with the North Ronaldsay sheep that eat almost entirely seaweed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Ronaldsay_sheep

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Julian Earl — Tue, 30 Nov 2021 11:42:23 GMT

Thanks Stephen. Perhaps they learn from a different flavourand coincidentally benefit from it? A reearch project foryou in your spare time??

Stay safe and wellover yonder won't you??

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 30 Nov 2021 10:43:57 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234168#234168"]I cannot accept that these animals "know" at some level[/quote]

Hi Julian - I don't think they "know" in the same way that you or I might know something - but most animals seem to have or gain through their lifetime some "knowledge" about where the best grazing is. If you look at the Falklands' natural landscape it is largely covered by a very poor quality grass called "whitegrass" - Poa something or other. Nutritionally it is of very poor quality and you wonder how the sheep can survive on it. However, if you get down on your hands and knees and look in between the clumps of whitegrass you find much finer and more nutritionally rich species of grasses growing in between the whitegrass clumps (sheltered from the very harsh environment). The sheep preferentially feed on these species. Do they "know" that they provide better nutrition for them - not as such but they certainly seem to prefer them to the very abundant whitegrass.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Julian Earl — Mon, 29 Nov 2021 20:05:01 GMT

HiStephen... Are you suggesting that sheep an cattle selectively graze the seaweed because of some instinctive knowledge of a mineral deficit or similar?

I have seen other suggestions of this sort of deliberate and selective grazing of certain vegetation etc. But if so, I cannot accept that these animals "know" at some level they have an actual orpotential deficiency! So is tht what youreally meant please?

Thanks...

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:30:05 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234162#234162"]it seems seaweed can be/is being farmed. [/quote]

You regularly see both sheep and cattle grazing on seaweed at low tide here in the Falklands. Presumably it provides minerals which are in short supply in the native pasture. Unfortunately sheep occasionally get stranded by the incoming tide.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 29 Nov 2021 19:27:28 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234126#234126"]Perhaps if theuse of oil is largely banned by COP-26 then the Argies will have to change their plans??[/quote]

Honestly can't see any prospect for oil being extracted from Falkland Islands waters now. Who would develop a brand new oil field at this point in time?

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Clive Ansell — Mon, 29 Nov 2021 10:12:45 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234060#234060"]I don not like the idea of seaweed being farmed as that suggests exploitation and overuse, damaging the marine environment as well![/quote]

it seems seaweed can be/is being farmed.

Ocean Rainforest

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Julian Earl — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:00:55 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234088#234088"]Almost similar situation now but there is the promise of rich pickings from oil rights etc.[/quote]

Perhaps if theuse of oil is largely banned by COP-26 then the Argies will have to change their plans??

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:35:34 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234088#234088"]The economy was in the floor and inflation through the roof. [/quote]

And it is again - but that is nothing new. Inflation currently at 60%, peso has dropped dramatically against the USD and the economy has still not reached the level it was at before the pandemic struck - and it struck very hard in Argentina.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:16:12 GMT

The military junta was in a desperate place. The economy was in the floor and inflation through the roof. Nothing beats a good war to distract the population and stay in power.

Almost similar situation now but there is the promise of rich pickings from oil rights etc.

The day Boris puts forward invasion plans for Normandy is the day we are all totally screwed!

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Julian Earl — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 13:07:26 GMT

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234085#234085"]And their current government is still continuing to make the claim - but economically Argentina is in a very bad place at the moment - so [/quote]

Surely they would not try another military takeover of the Islands though would they? Doesn't bear thinking about really! You keep your head down Stephen, whatever else you do!! Best Wishes to you and yours!

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:13:38 GMT

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234072#234072"]Why on ert the Argies wanted them I have no idea!![/quote]

And their current government is still continuing to make the claim - but economically Argentina is in a very bad place at the moment - so much of it is to deflect from their domestic problems.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:11:07 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234071#234071"]Post a photo! I'd love to see a picture of what it's like down there. ;)[/quote]

Nothing to see this morning - just grey and cold. A light dusting of snow on the higher hills.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Julian Earl — Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:38:40 GMT

Yes Stephen..., Wot |Arlo says just above!! Photographs please?? Not that I don't believe you of course!!But I thought it was always snowing in the Falkland Islands?? Why on earth the Argies wanted them I have no idea!!

Best Wishes. Have a good summer in that there Southern Hemisphere!!

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 22 Nov 2021 20:13:20 GMT

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234070#234070"]Snowing heavily outside my window as I write this comment a[/quote]

Stephen Pointing Post a photo! I'd love to see a picture of what it's like down there. ;)

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 22 Nov 2021 17:30:06 GMT

Definite signs of global warming down here in the Falklands. Snowing heavily outside my window as I write this comment and that would be the equivalent of May 22nd in the northern hemisphere. Not often you get snow in the UK in May - but can occur very occasionally. Not so unusual down here - I think the only 2 months when snow rarely if ever occurs is January and February. Definitely not good weather for shearing at present.

RE: Climate change?? End-Game??

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 22 Nov 2021 14:47:08 GMT

As with all controversial subjects, statistics can be manipulated to back up any argument.

https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-through-crop-deaths

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30063/climate-change-end-game/234061#234061"]85 percent of livestock diet is grass or biproduct waste if human food production United Nations figures[/quote]

It really isn't that straight forward. Your grass-fed beef are not typical for beef production.

https://wwf.panda.org/discover/our_focus/food_practice/sustainable_production/soy/