Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

cairncross — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 21:20:51 GMT

Quite a lot of my day is these vaccs glands etc and they are great, a few minutes autopilot low pressure task. Shut me in a room and force only the intense stuff on me and i would burn out pretty quick.

Not enough vets too many pets we need to offer more basic care spread ourselves more evenly. 13 year old in congestive cardiac failure, kidney failure or with obvious chest mass we can manage its decline without compromising welfare and save many many hours of vet time and client costs by not refering to specialist to gain 1 or 2 months of limited quality lifespan and place the owner on an emotional rollercoaster.

Less high end care means lower bills lower insurance premiums so more pets get some care at least Lower owner expectations and comparisons so fewer complaints.

I am not sure about triage, is it not just organising the order things are dealt with eventually they all still need seen,

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Clive Ansell — Mon, 08 Nov 2021 12:26:30 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233837#233837"]The survey has a lot of questions aimed at work life balence , more time off essentially, which should be counterintuitive to solving a lack of staff . I guess they have abandoned the idea of filling current hours and will aim to make their money from the hours they can attract staff too.[/quote][quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233837#233837"]Work is going to be intensified into fewer hours that are already overloaded [/quote]

Maybe we need as a profession to become more efficient. There is clearly a lack of veterinary surgeons, and available veterinary time.

Maybe we need to make better use of our nurses, and look at remote consulting more. A fair proportion of my veterinary day consists of vaccinations, anal glands, post op checks, nails etc. This could be delegated to nurses or technicians, leaving vet time free to attend to sick animals.

We could make triaging more efficient too. During lockdown, cases were all triaged over the telephone, but even most of the cases that were seen were not emergencies and could have been dealt with via telephone advice.

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233837#233837"]There are quite a lot of questions on benefits other than salary,[/quote]

Yes. If I were looking for a permanent position I would only be interested in the headline salary, working hours and working conditions.

I would have not interest whatsoever in all the add on superfluous crap such as day off for birthday, cycle to work scheme, health insurance etc. If I want any of those things, I would go and get them.

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

cairncross — Sun, 07 Nov 2021 06:06:50 GMT

Whilst most of us are clamouring for a mythical solution for the profession i guess hard headed buisiness solutions do exist. With vet and vn shortages you cut your cloth accordingly target their time at the most lucrative work.

The survey has a lot of questions aimed at work life balence , more time off essentially, which should be counterintuitive to solving a lack of staff . I guess they have abandoned the idea of filling current hours and will aim to make their money from the hours they can attract staff too. The hours that nobody wants to work providing care will be abandoned as unattractive and unproductive and will be somebody elses problem and downfall if they want staff.

There are quite a lot of questions on benefits other than salary, these have a financial cost but are not as directly comparable as a headline salary figure. My guess is that a race to the top on salary isnt an option if you already have thousands employed in the same role you are trying to attract a percentage more too Added that the margin to expand this cost narrows a client base that is already having its disposible income squeezed.

Providing 24 7 care is going to be an even bigger headache for the profession in general, receiving it a bigger issue for pet owners, unaffordability will be extended to an even bigger and more vocal percentage of the populace.

Work is going to be intensified into fewer hours that are already overloaded so as to be the major cause of pressure stress and burnout and more time off wont come with more salary to enjoy it.

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Julian Earl — Fri, 05 Nov 2021 18:01:13 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233831#233831"]

r of messing up, fear of not offering perceived gold standard treatment

I repeat the following to any new graduate

[/quote]

That is very true, I am sure for most of us Neil? Fear of being wrong? But maybe that is a good thing, setting ourselves high standards that we always thrive to achieve? It works against us if we cannot reach the standard we really perceive as correct or necessary to give optimal care? Perhaps this is something that should be addressed at undergraduate level, enlightening students as to what success-rates are truly achieved in practices, at different types and levels of practice/ Levels = first opinion practice; referral practices with farmore equipment and facilities. Feedback on different CPD courses? For me in 1983 I had really struggled in my first lambing reason and was proactive joining Sheep Veterinary Society. A life-changing decision, attending most conferences after that, spring AND autumn the certificate and hugely improved coping with lambing seasons, flock-problems etc., etc... Even SVS-presidency eventually! Most important, arguably in my current situation, establishing a lifelong group of professional friends, critically important following my diagnosis of depression/anxiety after my 2012 cycling-crash- and life-threatening injuries! I had to retire but after attending SVS, my fears of being wrong all of the timeovwr all these years has been much reduced!! = My tip for the day!!

So thank you SVS, I am in your debt for various reasons! Even the Certificate- AVP- SHP, WEL., MRCVS. A huge honour from my professional peers I feel!

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:15:26 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233832#233832"]Absolutely Neil. And the fear is not new, it was here 11 years ago when I arrived in the UK and it was fear showed by UK graduates not overseas. Fear that the RCVS did not care about.[/quote]

Actually that has sprung a memory from only 4 weeks ago. A very good (award winning no less) practice sent their new EU graduate to an RCVS day. He came back having had the fear of god put into him about what lay ahead, so much so that they regretted sending him. So yes to the RCVS you can definitely take a look at your communication and actions as a regulatory body

Neil

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 05 Nov 2021 17:00:50 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233831#233831"]The main one I hear and the RCVS CAN do something about this is FEAR[/quote]

Absolutely Neil. And the fear is not new, it was here 11 years ago when I arrived in the UK and it was fear showed by UK graduates not overseas. Fear that the RCVS did not care about.

I remember clearly a topic on this forum, 6-7 years ago maybe. The then CompanionCare employed RCVS vice-president was standing for re-election and he said he wants to fight "the fear". I pointed out that maybe he should start with apologising for allowing the fear to develop under his own eyes in the first place. The advice was rather not well taken at all.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233789#233789"]How much difference do you think they will make? [/quote]

F... all if I may.

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:34:23 GMT

The main one I hear and the RCVS CAN do something about this is FEAR

It's fear of litigation, fear of getting struck off, fear of messing up, fear of not offering perceived gold standard treatment

I repeat the following to any new graduate

One vet a year gets struck of for poor clinical work

The VDS means you don't lose any money. In fact you gain as you get to star in their amusing anecdotes

What's the chances? You have to accept that every 4 years, someone will take a pop at you, but if the process is a good one?

The RCVS can very much do something about the former, make the disciplinary process easier on the vet, it's a no brainer.

It's destructive, this fear thing.

Neil

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Martin Hamilton — Fri, 05 Nov 2021 16:21:08 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233819#233819"]I spoke to a younger vet the other day, the sense of anger at the profession was palpable, but many of the things he/she was saying were in my opinion 'over the top'[/quote]

Quoting you Neil but also directing this at the comments regarding suicide in the profession etc. Tragically I have been graduated for only 5.5 years, however I know of 3 acquaintances from vet school who have committed suicide. All 3 had expressed frustrations with the industry and their loved ones have since been targeting the profession as the primary factor in their loss. Of course this is not a straight forward correlation and there are many, many factors in play.

I have a vet in the family who would be regarded as a "modvet" or even a "dinovet" - they have not experienced any colleagues or acquaintances having commited suicide. A lot of alcoholism, mind you.

Of course I do not want to speak for those who have taken their lives, and this is anecdotal, but from my perspective it certainly looks like things have deteriorated.

I can certainly see how many of the factors that have been discussed over the last few months contribute to this - moving from a city with peers to a practice with less people your age/less opportunities to socialise, often single, working in a consult room 8am - 7pm, little chance to partake in club/sport activities, general loneliness. Of course not all jobs are like this, but there are plenty of them out there which turn people off the profession as a whole or makes people feel trapped and make a more tragic choice.

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Alistair Graham-Evans — Fri, 05 Nov 2021 10:52:52 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233810#233810"]I did think about getting employees to vote.[/quote]

Our new graduate posted a job advert for us on a Facebook vet employment site stating the good things she liked about working for us. We didn’t ask her to - she was concerned that we have had no applicants! I was very pleased with her comments and quite emotional when I read the advert. She loves her job.
We’ll see if that results in any interest or we discover that there are actually no vets out there to employ!

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 04 Nov 2021 12:01:27 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233810#233810"]

Francisco Gomez said:
Has anyone studied if clinical vet suicide and mental illness has worsen recently?

I was asking myself that very same question only the other day. There must be someone counting each year, else there wouldn't be those stats about how vets are at greater risk than anyone else.

[/quote]

But how do you do this?

How do we know if a death is suicide/accident or naturel occurrence?

In regards deterioration in mental health, again how can you measure that simply because you are always asking different people and everyone works differently, you'd need an enormous population within the survey to make any sense of it.

I spoke to a younger vet the other day, the sense of anger at the profession was palpable, but many of the things he/she was saying were in my opinion 'over the top'

The best way surely is to follow a cohort of vets through their career and see how individual attitudes change. It's a long term thing but surely would give better results

Neil

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 04 Nov 2021 08:10:03 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233805#233805"]Has anyone studied if clinical vet suicide and mental illness has worsen recently?[/quote]

I was asking myself that very same question only the other day. There must be someone counting each year, else there wouldn't be those stats about how vets are at greater risk than anyone else.

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233805#233805"]No matter how much any of them big guys ask how to improve the clinical work situation because the solution goes in direct contravention to their goals.[/quote]

Yes, but there are probably other aspects of the job which they could improve, to compensate.

[quote userid="6765" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233806#233806"]The AVA in Australia has started an Employer of Choice Accreditation Program.[/quote]

How interesting. I was thinking about doing something similar, in fact I did do something vaguely similar in our job section ... it's a feature by which advertisers can place a link for the jobseeker to contact another employee for a chat about what it is like at the practice.

The problem is a) advertisers being arsed to do it, and b) credibility (I mean, you are not going to suggest an employee who is going to talk in less than glowing terms!).

I did think about getting employees to vote. But it would take a brave employee to vote negatively (or even less than 100 positively), even on a system which purports to be anonymous.

I think the only real way to do it is visits by independent assessors, which would be way too expensive.

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Alistair Graham-Evans — Wed, 03 Nov 2021 22:35:25 GMT

The AVA in Australia has started an Employer of Choice Accreditation Program.

I feel obliged to do it as being on the list may assist with staffing. We’ve had an advert for a vet for 6 weeks now and just received an ominous silence - 0 replies.
The process seems to entail optional employee satisfaction surveys, some navel gazing, webinar education and a workbook with proof of implementation of good management practice. Then if you are judged to be a decent human you go on the list and wait for repetitive re-accreditation. All our vets tell us when they have been head-hunted and say they have no intention of leaving. The only reason any go is relocating for family reasons or maternity leave. Once maternity leave ends then they come back part time - our 2 partner clinic now has 5 full time and 3 part time vets and the partners work part time and do all management.
Although the accreditation process is tedious I guess it will make us keep on top of caring for our staff - but they and I feel we are doing this as much as possible anyway.

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 03 Nov 2021 21:48:35 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233801#233801"]That was my first thought when I read the release. Not quite sure how Vet4Pets is going to solve the staff shortage, or unsustainable workloads or OOH, or difficult clients for that matter. [/quote]

I'm unsure if it was José Mercé or someone else in the flamenco world, who declared in an interview that they have gone to the doctor to asked how to take less coke.

Surprise surprise when the doctor told them that taking less won't solve the root of the problem. It's an addiction, they said. You need to stop completely and rethink how to live your life, if there's a life out there you want living.

No matter how much any of them big guys ask how to improve the clinical work situation because the solution goes in direct contravention to their goals.

Has anyone studied if clinical vet suicide and mental illness has worsen recently?

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Clive Ansell — Wed, 03 Nov 2021 20:11:26 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233801#233801"]Not quite sure how Vet4Pets is going to solve the staff shortage, or unsustainable workloads or OOH, or difficult clients for that matter. [/quote]

They won't. Ever.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233801#233801"]Then again, the results will be published openly, and I can't help feeling the more people who are talking about all this the better.[/quote]

Yes, agree 100%. Good thing.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233801#233801"]the more the RCVS is likely to hear it and perhaps factor these things into its decisions. [/quote]

If one is waiting for the RCVS to resolve the current issues, they could be in for a very long wait.

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 03 Nov 2021 18:14:29 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback"]Is anyone listening? Well at least people are asking.[/quote]

Yep, full story here: https://www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary-news/posts/vets4pets-launches-survey-to-improve-the-profession

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30056/veterinary-issues-a-chance-to-feedback/233789#233789"]How much difference do you think they will make? [/quote]

That was my first thought when I read the release. Not quite sure how Vet4Pets is going to solve the staff shortage, or unsustainable workloads or OOH, or difficult clients for that matter.

Then again, the results will be published openly, and I can't help feeling the more people who are talking about all this the better. And the more people are talking, the more the RCVS is likely to hear it and perhaps factor these things into its decisions.

RE: Veterinary issues , a chance to feedback

Clive Ansell — Wed, 03 Nov 2021 08:03:14 GMT

How much difference do you think they will make?

Talking to colleagues I've been working with recently, the main issues seem to be shortage of Vet and RVN staff, unsustainable work loads, and insecurities over OOH care provision. I can't foresee those being resolved anytime soon.