Cop 26 and climate change

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

niamhjl — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:03:48 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234108#234108"]f demand were reduced because there was a tax on second home ownership[/quote]

There is a tax on second home ownership… the rate of stamp duty is much higher on a second home. We fell foul of this a couple of years ago when we bought our house before our previous house had sold (it was on the market, we just hadn’t managed to sell it yet, and so we briefly owned 2 homes) it cost us about another 10-20k in extra stamp duty. Thankfully since we sold our first house a few months later, we were able to reclaim it.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Bob Russell — Wed, 24 Nov 2021 12:08:06 GMT

There are plenty of land owners diversifying into holiday cabins. These are very pretty but rarely insulated for winter occupation. They are unlikely to have planning permission for permanent residence. They are therefore not taking away homes for locals.

As a wooden shed resident I can confirm they can be made suitable for 365 days habitation and they cost a lot less than a traditional house. With care the Scandinavians have managed to keep some in good nick for a hundred years or more! Who would complain about living in a well insulated log cabin?

There are cheaper options for local residents but the banks hate to lend on them and councils refuse to think outside the box. This is such a missed opportunity.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:39:11 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234102#234102"]It's not black and white[/quote]

I understand that.

My real beef, and it's not exclusive to Cornwall, and equally applies to rural Worcestershire where I was born, is very wealthy people buying up available property as either a second home or an investment tool, thus driving up prices and forcing local working folk out of the loop.

I think there needs to be some mechanism where they have to contribute and put something back in to the local community. The only way I can think of is local taxation.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234102#234102"]and for many to discover other areas of the country[/quote]

Yes.

I was in Cornwall this summer with family and friends, and had a fabulous time. That said I feel it is somewhat overrated, and I agree that there are equally nice or nicer locations within the UK. Cornwall seems to have become stupidly expensive too.

The thing that would put me off returning in a hurry, is the hideous 8 hour car journey to get home - endless traffic queuing just to join the next queue. it would have been quicker to fly to the US.

On a thread about the environment and climate change, I probably shouldn't say it, but next time I will seriously look at getting flights to Newquay. If our political overlords are serious (And I don't think they are) about the environment, they need to address our totally inadequate transport infrastructure.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 21:03:10 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234101#234101"]But does taxing second home owners solve the problem of inflated house prices stopping locals getting on the ladder?[/quote]

It could help.

If demand were reduced because there was a tax on second home ownership and they wern't so keen to buy, it could help keep prices lower and therefore more affordable to locals

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234101#234101"]I think that the system should be based on the idea of reserving properties for local homeowners, rather than taxing second home owners.[/quote]

Agree, but how could it be enforced or policed? how could you say to one seller they could sell to the highest bidder, but another seller must be restriced by selling locally ?? it would be legally challenged I'm sure.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234101#234101"]I vehemently dislike the idea of investment companies owning properties. [/quote]

Me too, and that includes city investors who don't live in them.

I agree with Bob: houses should be for living in and for families to make their home, not some Thatcher inspired, Alan Sugar apprentice style, fast buck making, business oppourtunity.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 18:04:14 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234097#234097"]I'm a little uncomfortable with a blanket 'tax the rich' ideology which always smacks a bit of envy. But I couldn't agree more that there needs to be a better balance in places like Cornwall. For a start, I would make it a requirement for properties to be owned by individuals, not companies. Second, I would limit the percentage of houses that could be owned by second home owners, or used for rental. [/quote]

I don't consider taxing second homes to be a tax on the rich. The really rich will pay the extra tax without thinking or pay someone to help evade the tax!

Mostly a tax on the better off mid income people and might make them think or wait until they actually want to move into an area before buying.

It is miserable being priced out of your home area especially if it is where you work and have family.

The golden rules really needs to be a house is to live in!

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:37:04 GMT

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234103#234103"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
Apparently, we all carry about about a tenth of a gram of faeces in our gluteal fold (aka butt crack).

Perhaps the French have got it right having a bidet alongside the toilet bowl. And they are very useful if you just want to soak your feet.

[/quote]

and most of the rest of the world who use water, hoses and your left (non eating hand)

Neil

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 17:03:00 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234097#234097"]Apparently, we all carry about about a tenth of a gram of faeces in our gluteal fold (aka butt crack).[/quote]

Perhaps the French have got it right having a bidet alongside the toilet bowl. And they are very useful if you just want to soak your feet.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:52:02 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234099#234099"]The situation in Cornwall is different. Many of the costal properties are owned by investors or companies who make vast amounts of money out of increasing property prices as well as very high rental charges during the holiday season.[/quote]

It's not black and white

My mother ran a holiday let overlooking the beach at Polzeath for 20 years (beach made famous by David Cameron) We lived in tied accommodation and this was their house investment. Was it a second home, yes. Did they contribute to the local economy, yes and no.

One of the major issues in Cornwall is having places to stay for local workers to provide the services for those who visit. However without the tourists there are no jobs. Having little to no infrastructure, Cornwall is at the end of a dual carriageway and a single railway line. The tourist season is also desperately short, Easter to mid September.

Everyone seemingly wants to live there. I wanted to get back after qualifying but the wages and rotas were poor, too many people trying to eek a living out of a deprived area.

Simon Reeve did a superb program on the place last year. The conclusion for the locals was a one way ticket out and I'm in that boat. To fix it needs proper investment and infrastructure, a desire for people to support local business and for many to discover other areas of the country (The Eden Valley for example) that make for a great vacation

Neil

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:50:27 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234100#234100"]It's not some form of socialist tax the rich agenda, it is simply asking those outsiders who make vast amounts of money out of properties in places like Cornwall, to put a little bit back into the local area that they and their tenants benefit from.[/quote]

But does taxing second home owners solve the problem of inflated house prices stopping locals getting on the ladder? I suspect not, which is the main reason I think that the system should be based on the idea of reserving properties for local homeowners, rather than taxing second home owners. And I vehemently dislike the idea of investment companies owning properties.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:46:49 GMT

It's not some form of socialist tax the rich agenda, it is simply asking those outsiders who make vast amounts of money out of properties in places like Cornwall, to put a little bit back into the local area that they and their tenants benefit from.

Call me Mr Picky if you like, but I'll give it a miss this time.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:40:09 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234098#234098"]f you click on the Cabins I mentioned you'll see that these are in his field, and are purpose built "huts"!! No use for permanent dwellings - purely holidays, a bit like a static motorhome rooted in one spot. Tricky to tax that out of spite!![/quote]

They look really nice, and are reasonably priced. I would happily stay in one.

They look like farmers who have diversified a little, and I would have no wish to tax them into oblivion at all.

The situation in Cornwall is different. Many of the costal properties are owned by investors or companies who make vast amounts of money out of increasing property prices as well as very high rental charges during the holiday season. It's not out of any form of spite or envy, but it would only be reasonable and fair that they make some form of local contribution in taxes.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

George Cooper — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:21:33 GMT

if you click on the Cabins I mentioned you'll see that these are in his field, and are purpose built "huts"!! No use for permanent dwellings - purely holidays, a bit like a static motorhome rooted in one spot. Tricky to tax that out of spite!!

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:20:12 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234092#234092"]

George Cooper said:
It seems that one of the keys to a successful Let is the presence of a Hot Tub

I can't think of anything I would rather not have. Unless they are regularly and meticulously cleaned, I always feel they are dirty things, lots of tubing and pipework where water can stagnate when they are not in use.

[/quote]

Apparently, we all carry about about a tenth of a gram of faeces in our gluteal fold (aka butt crack)¹. 5 people in a tub = about a tablespoon.

Nice.

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234095#234095"]Back to my earlier opinion that all second homes and holiday lets should be taxed heavily and the money ploughed in locally.[/quote]

I'm a little uncomfortable with a blanket 'tax the rich' ideology which always smacks a bit of envy. But I couldn't agree more that there needs to be a better balance in places like Cornwall. For a start, I would make it a requirement for properties to be owned by individuals, not companies. Second, I would limit the percentage of houses that could be owned by second home owners, or used for rental.

Reference

www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Deadly-germs-sweat-tablespoon-feces-The-truth-really-lurks-hotel-hot-tub.html

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 16:02:56 GMT

Agree 100%. I think there should also be schemes whereby affordable homes are reserved or ring fenced for local people.

The situation in parts of Cornwall is driving local people away and in to social housing in the poorer areas of the towns and cities. Because it has become popular and trendy, property prices have sky rocketed. Many costal homes are now second homes, or investment properties for city and overseas investors business portfolios.

Yes, they should be taxed.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 15:37:08 GMT

Back to my earlier opinion that all second homes and holiday lets should be taxed heavily and the money ploughed in locally.

Houses are for people to live in. There are other ways tourists and visitors can be accommodated. Tents/caravans/B&B/Guest houses/Hotels.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:17:49 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234059#234059"]It seems that one of the keys to a successful Let is the presence of a Hot Tub[/quote]

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234059#234059"]The greatest thriving local social group would appear to be the Young Farmer's Clubs [/quote]

Crikey - that brings back memories. Had loads of fun with them in my pre vet days in the 80's.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 14:03:44 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234086#234086"]I can see holiday lets being far more beneficial for an area than second homes. Each new visitor is likely to want to explore and spend money. Second home owners more likely to load up the car with essentials before chilling at second home.[/quote]

Maybe.

I was down in Cornwall earlier in the year, and some of the local people are far from happy. Many of the holiday homes are now owned by investors, not local people. Many holiday makers order their shopping online from the likes of Tesco for a delivery to coincide with their arrival. So far, precious little revenue going back into the local economy. In addition those employed to service the tourism sector are mainly seasonal minimum wage employees, again very little useful contribution to the local economy.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Bob Russell — Tue, 23 Nov 2021 12:24:16 GMT

I can see holiday lets being far more beneficial for an area than second homes. Each new visitor is likely to want to explore and spend money. Second home owners more likely to load up the car with essentials before chilling at second home.

I fully accept this is not based on fact but supposition as I have never had a UK second home! We do have a second home in Bangkok and a couple of family occupied places in the family village in one of Thailand's national parks. On the few occasions I have been able to get over there I happily vegetate and socialise with family. I have been seen out in the fields on occasions but spend more time checking for snakes than contributing my labour!!

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

George Cooper — Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:59:39 GMT

I guess that I'm fortunate 1200 feet up in the hills of mid-Wales. Sure - it is remote with no mobile signal for 6 miles in all directions and the choice of a 16 mile round trip to top up the fruit and veg containers in the fridge or to engage in the services of one of the five supermarket delivery vans. Farms locally are predominantly family farmed, and mainly sheep, sucklers, and a couple of surviving dairy units all of which involve the younger family members. And as ever, the Welsh are keen on their horse-led pursuits, showing, sulky racing and so on.

The greatest thriving local social group would appear to be the Young Farmer's Clubs - the best marriage arranger ever! Their rallies and village shows, speed shears, tractor events are guaranteed to attract not just the 10-26 year olds but the older generations who turn up in support of the intense rivalry in the competitions. It has been one of the never-ending joys of the region to have been involved with so many aspects of their lives.

As Clive has said, and I echo it, the "youngsters" are pushing to improve the impact of farming in many ways. And as a VS in the community I have enjoyed being an invited part of focus groups, called by these young farmers as they advance through Agricultural college of University degrees and have been constantly impressed by their passion for what they do. Locally the older generation has produced a surprising number of politically active members who have risen in their chosen associations to Presidential status for a good number of years.

There are, scattered along the byways, a number of Holiday Lets, all done to the highest of standards and benefitting from a high percentage of repeat business. It seems that one of the keys to a successful Let is the presence of a Hot Tub, preferably facing one of the many lovely country views. - For an example - have a look at this for a position cwmachaucabins.co.uk (just don't ask me to pronounce it!). These returning patrons of the countryside are contributing healthy sums into the local economy - both Builth Wells and Brecon have no longer got empty shops in their centres, and it is fair to say that both towns this summer have been heaving with visitors. I compare these towns with Hereford, another near-ish holiday destination, yet still struggling to fill the empty premises in the city centre. Our own family business, The Children's Bookshelf, was head-hunted by the Council who are actively engaged in regenerating the City, because our presence draws in foot-fall as local parents and schools are active in wanting to support a local family business. After a lean few months we are now back into doing Pop-Ups in Schools and are seeing a definite and marked increase in our results.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:31:05 GMT

[quote userid="19228" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234057#234057"]Do young people work on farms anymore?[/quote]

Yes, not so many, but they still do.

The farms local to me are all still family owned and run. Most of the land is owned by 3 large farms, they are mixed sheep and cattle, 1 outdoor pig farm, but predominantly arable. All 3 employ permanent staff.

I went to school with children from all 3 farms, who are all now in the process of handing the reins over to their own children. Going back to subject in hand, the environment, I have to say that I am very impressed with the younger farmers; they take the environmental issues seriously, they are forward thinking, they are trying to be more efficient by investing in technology and low emission vehicles and machinery, trying to reduce chemical use, and are planting more trees, hedges and wildlife areas.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

cairncross — Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:09:37 GMT

Do young people work on farms anymore? Much of the land is contract farmed to large corporate outfits who move into areas to seed spray and harvest and move on Friend in Northumbria says all neighbours for many miles have no one working the land and livibg in the arwa he can go for months without meeting a neighbouring farm worker on the road for chat.. I guess family stock farms still exist but cant think of many with young workers not from the family. At TB tests before i quit it was noticible that tge help drafted in tended to be pensioners

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Sat, 20 Nov 2021 12:06:33 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234054#234054"]These are problems generated by having an affluent sector that can afford a luxury lifestyle. That includes anyone wanting an airBNB in a holiday area. People can afford to outbid those living in an area. Without the locals the pub, shop, post office dies. Bus services stop being viable and huge areas go to sleep for days, weeks, months.[/quote]

This has already happened, long ago, where my Mother lives. There are now only 3 homes owned and lived in by locals, my Mother being one of them. All of the others are owned by wealthy business people, and many are second/third home country retreats for wealthy Londoners.

Rural village life and local community has irrevesiblly changed/vanished. Most of the newcomers bleat about the environment and supporting the local community, while at the same time strutting around in 4 and 5 litre engine gas guzzling 4x4's (when one moves into the country, it's compulsory to own the biggest available 4x4!) and shopping online for Tesco home delivery, but in reality they do sweet FA other than look after their property investment portfolios.

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234054#234054"]Second homes (not being rented for housing) could/should? be taxed to bits. Homes converted to leisure use should be similarly treated. Houses are for living in. Hotels and B&B's are for holidays. It is rare that my politics match my leftie son but it does on this one.[/quote]

I think there should also be affordable homes reserved, set aside, or built for the young local farm workers to live in.

Another problem we have seen is farmers and land owners selling off what were once workers' cottages, for vast amounts of money and turned into second home retreats for the very rich.

When I was younger I would have supported setting up the Abbots Morton Nationalists and burning them down. Now I have aged and mellowed a bit, I would suggest taxing them with the money raised being ring fenced to support local infrastructure.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Bob Russell — Sat, 20 Nov 2021 11:09:57 GMT

These are problems generated by having an affluent sector that can afford a luxury lifestyle. That includes anyone wanting an airBNB in a holiday area. People can afford to outbid those living in an area. Without the locals the pub, shop, post office dies. Bus services stop being viable and huge areas go to sleep for days, weeks, months.

Second homes (not being rented for housing) could/should? be taxed to bits. Homes converted to leisure use should be similarly treated. Houses are for living in. Hotels and B&B's are for holidays. It is rare that my politics match my leftie son but it does on this one.

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Sat, 20 Nov 2021 10:33:12 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/30054/cop-26-and-climate-change/234037#234037"]Ironically living in the countryside (presuming you drive) and your carbon footprint can be 10x that of someone living in a city.[/quote]

Maybe, but unavoidable.

My Mother still lives in rural Worcestershire, and it is a 10 mile drive to the nearest town. Being able to drive or access to someone who does is essential.

Over decades, public transport has been decimated to the point there almost isn't any (1 bus service a week). Local shops, butchers, bakers and pubs have almost all closed down, meaning longer car journeys to a town to buy essentials and for entertainment. Dependency on the car has increased.

House prices are now so high, that the local youngsters who leave school and work on the farms cannot afford to live locally. They have to live in modern day slum social housing in the towns and travel by car into work a minimum of 10 miles each way. They tend to drive old diesel cars, they don't receive the salaries that would enable them to buy eco friendly hybrid or electic cars at £50k a pop.

So whether the environmental impact of modern country living can be reduced, is doubtful/impossible?

RE: Cop 26 and climate change

Clive Ansell — Fri, 19 Nov 2021 18:53:03 GMT

I'm looking at buying a new mattress, and in some of the marketing BS some of the manufacturers claim their products are climate neutral - what does that mean exactly?