What being a veterinarian really takes

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Julian Earl — Mon, 01 Nov 2021 20:59:10 GMT

I hd a complaint from a chap and wrote a book about it!! Whenhe brought his bitch back for suture removal after my spey, jhe complained to bossBrian that I had swapped the dog's head without permission! To Brian's credit he did not laugh nor check the idiot out but just offered, "Well if you are still not happy with the head in two weeks we'll swap it back!! Ignoring the whole absurdity, this arrangement was agreed but we never saw the chap again!! Hence my second book-title is The Dog With the Head Transplant!!" The bitch spey-op went fine and healed nicelyb.t.w!!

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 01 Nov 2021 14:55:29 GMT

That's true, they know this and still expect a single dental or orthopaedic procedure to fix their animal. I made constant analogies to human treatment to communicate risk and expectations to clients.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Alistair Graham-Evans — Mon, 25 Oct 2021 02:21:35 GMT

Interview with Professor of intensive care

“An ICU ward is a highly intensive environment. We see more deaths than anyone outside of a war zone, and it takes an emotional toll,” he says. In the pre-Covid days, he adds, he could take his juniors to the pub to decompress after a difficult day. “But we are a team, doing everything together; we have to be, to make the right decision and to share the guilt and the burden of responsibility for life and death. Like firing squads – one bullet but 10 people pull the trigger. If I had to bear all that emotional responsibility on my own it would be very difficult.”

If you put a young vet with just basic training in a small clinic working without the back up of an experienced team, or a vet working on their own in an OOH clinic the responsibility will be huge and they will will burn out very quickly. The public will also probably expect skills far in excess of what is reasonable.
If the ICU professor says he couldn’t cope with the responsibilities on his own then what chance does a young vet have? Although we treat animals the client’s expectations are similar. Interestingly, when advising owners about possible complications of orthopaedic surgery, it is not uncommon for them to tell me they needed multiple surgeries themselves ( often > 3) and it still hurts!

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Jill Butterworth — Sat, 23 Oct 2021 19:29:11 GMT

Just a thought, why don't we all just turn off the comments on social media...

I know that someone started a page called 'Down with xxx vets' after a disagreement, but presumably expire or can be removed by FB etc (eventually)

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 23 Oct 2021 18:34:12 GMT

[quote userid="9448" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233665#233665"]I am lucky as I locum, I just dip in and out. Most of the clients are grateful, some are lovely. There is a small percentage that take up more time than they should and seem to feel entitled to be rude to the team or even abusive. [/quote]

I am also a locum...and completely agree. The small percentage soak up far too much time and emotional energy!

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Julie Turner — Sat, 23 Oct 2021 18:25:04 GMT

Hi Gillian

I am lucky as I locum, I just dip in and out. Most of the clients are grateful, some are lovely. There is a small percentage that take up more time than they should and seem to feel entitled to be rude to the team or even abusive.

Personally, I would give them a warning to be reasonable and/or find somewhere else (and I did when principal, always looked after the team), but am I now in a different world where the vets worry about their social media presence above their team?

Perhaps I too am too long in the tooth to stay in this profession because I won’t tolerate abuse? I understand clients are stressed, so is our profession, including the nurses, ACAs and receptionists….

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Sarah McGurk — Sat, 23 Oct 2021 10:23:33 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233589#233589"]I watched - with half an eye in the end - but two things struck me about that program. First that it was saying that women get more abuse online than men. I was surprised by that (though don't remember hearing the evidence), because I thought most abusers were equal opportunities abusers. [/quote]

You can do an experiment on Twitter if you like. Sign up under a male name for a couple of weeks and join in with a few contentious topics. Then change to a female name and see whether the way people react to you is different.

It’s not just “abuse” though. Linked-In was interesting. I had a photo up for a while and kept getting hit on by men, which I found utterly bizarre. The funniest was a man who started texting me one day when I was at work. He asked me how I was and I replied that I was a bit chilly as I’d just been checking the internal temperature of some refrigerated chickens. He carried right on as if that was completely normal, then eventually, when I said I had to go work, he started quoting bible passages at me and begging me not to stop. I don’t know if you’re on Linked-In Arlo, but I bet no woman ever did that to you!!! I’ve changed my avatar now so you can’t see my face and it appears to have stopped. Fortunately I found it funny (safe in an isolated part of rural Norway during coronavirus) but I’m sure some women would find it intimidating.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 17:03:24 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233581#233581"]That said - tonight, on Monday 18th October 2021, is a Panorama program on social media hatred and abuse, and the steps that FB and Instagram are taking or NOT taking to deal with it.[/quote]

I watched - with half an eye in the end - but two things struck me about that program. First that it was saying that women get more abuse online than men. I was surprised by that (though don't remember hearing the evidence), because I thought most abusers were equal opportunities abusers.

That aside, the abuser that agreed to speak to his abusee (the journalist) on the telephone was really unaware of the impact of his behaviour, and ceased after they had spoken on the phone.

And that is the very simple, very clear message I think we want to get across to the public, which is 'take it offline', 'talk to your vet/practice'. And get other people to call it out when people complain online.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 18 Oct 2021 18:23:49 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233581#233581"]Sadly I will not try again, as the speed of delivery and the enunciation defeats both of my hearing aids even after re-tuning.[/quote]

Laughed out loud. I feel your pain (I am a hearing aid wearer myself these days), but I could heae it OK.

I shall be gripped, thanks for sharing this.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

George Cooper — Mon, 18 Oct 2021 15:14:46 GMT

I've just tried - for the third attempt - to watch this vid. Sadly I will not try again, as the speed of delivery and the enunciation defeats both of my hearing aids even after re-tuning. I find it disappointing on a number of levels as the message IS important to disseminate. This isn't *her fault* at all, as she is truly attempting to educate our public.

That said - tonight, on Monday 18th October 2021, is a Panorama program on social media hatred and abuse, and the steps that FB and Instagram are taking or NOT taking to deal with it.

As a PS to this, I still feel that this profession MUST try to instil or train, or educate every single public facing veterinary surgeon or RVN with the tools to deal with this in real life. Call it "Resilience", call it "Defensiveness", call it "Life" - WE, all of us, RCVS-led, BVA-led, Vet-Defence-led have to grasp this nettle because nobody else is going to deal with what we have to deal with every day.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Bob Russell — Thu, 14 Oct 2021 09:14:16 GMT

I doubt it is 10% of people. They just occupy far more 'space' than they are entitled to!

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Julian Earl — Thu, 14 Oct 2021 08:39:28 GMT

[quote userid="9179" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233566#233566"]only 10%? lucky guy :D[/quote]

Thank you Mr Milligan for giving me a LOL with this comment!!

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Chris Milligan — Wed, 13 Oct 2021 17:57:19 GMT

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233563#233563"]he had a good rant about how 10% of the people he dealt with were self -entitled assholes[/quote]

only 10%? lucky guy :D

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 13 Oct 2021 13:28:40 GMT

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233563#233563"]But I've started to realise that all professions/ workplaces have the same issues we do![/quote]

I've taken over to 2000 people on cycle tours. I've had some tricky people and some interesting problems to solve. Try telling a participant that it's inappropriate to go into a swimming pool somewhere on the planet, put your arm around a random person and take a selfie when you are going to have to live with them for another 10 days, I've been there.

For me it's not the people, it's the pressure we're placed under where you have to sort it as the buck stops with you and you feel a responsibility. It's a question of changing the conditions you are expected to work under because like the general population, 99% of vets are good people

Neil

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Julie Innes — Wed, 13 Oct 2021 13:16:17 GMT

I've been guilty of being quite negative about the profession in the past. But I've started to realise that all professions/ workplaces have the same issues we do!

I was (accidentally - blame my husband!) watching a YouTube channel yesterday about someone buying and selling second hand cars. The guy was ranting about the comments slagging him off- he had a good rant about how 10% of the people he dealt with were self -entitled assholes, it made me smile.

There is a quote somewhere that not everyone is an asshole, but they are evenly dispersed to make sure you come into contact with at least one a day!

We are not alone! The "BeKind" campaigns just go over the head of some people, sadly. People don't need to learn how to be decent to their vets- they need to learn how to be decent people full stop, it seems.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

James Dunne — Wed, 13 Oct 2021 05:47:01 GMT

It is a multifactorial issue and there has been reams written about this topic in recent decades. And it is not rational, so attempting to understand 'why choose suicide' from a rational perspective is not possible. It is the end result of severe depression or other mental illness. Having been at the end of the line myself some time ago, I can only offer personal reasons and they are not the same for everyone, but underlying issues that affect our profession particularly include long hours, relatively low pay, high customer expectations relative to the reality of what they can afford, poor career progression prospects generally (not just business ownership - we have a poor career structure) etc etc. These stresses on top of often high debt graduating, the rising cost of living outstripping wages etc, can add to pressures. Throw in some bad luck such as illness/bereavement or other life strain into the 'life pot' of someone who's already beleaguered and what seems like a crazy idea to anyone rational seems perfectly logical to the afflicted and the only way out to someone at rock bottom is to end it all. Add to that, that our profession is used to administering lethal injections and are expert at it and readily have the means and materials available and you have a very dangerous cocktail indeed. Some research indicated that while vets have a 4-times higher suicide rate than the general population, it may be because we are often successful first time whereas Joe Public often has one or two 'cries for help' that are unsuccessful and gets intervention. The two other professions with similar issues are also healthcare professions - doctors and dentists. Likely we share common traits and likely we share common pressures and means.Why especially women I am not sure - in the general population, more men commit suicide than women. In our profession, women outnumber men, so it is possible that this reflects the proportions - is this the case?

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Coopers Wamae — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 23:07:25 GMT

For years I has been bothering me why some folks in this profession especially women get to commit suicide. Can't really put my head around it. Why? This is the best profession on God's green earth. Why choose suicide? Can't seem to find an answer.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:19:05 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233556#233556"]BUT - for the reasons outlined I do have concerns that it might rebound unless very carefully expreessed.[/quote]

If it reassures you, I am ACUTELY aware of that possibility, of the need for very careful expression and testing!

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

George Cooper — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 18:15:27 GMT

Quite obviously, as you know me of old, I will NOT be against any initiative to try and correct things, and will support whatever you guys devise. I would, genuinely, be delighted to be proved wrong in my deep=seated reservations about its efficacy. BUT - for the reasons outlined I do have concerns that it might rebound unless very carefully expreessed.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 17:36:57 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233553#233553"]The real, practical, difficulty that I have is in pure logistics, semantics, statistics is buried in the facts - that there are 60+ million people of whom about 50% might own a pet of one flavour or another, and there are, using James' figures, 30+ thousand associated with the profession. It surely MUST be an easier taksk to reach a meaningful proportion of us, than of the public. [/quote]

George Cooper Sure, it is an easier task to reach a meaningful proportion of vets than the public, but that doesn't to my mind, mean one should rule out any efforts to educate the public. If a film goes viral ... well, I call into evidence, once again, the film at the start of this thread. Half a million (and counting) is a significant number. And if the film cost nothing but a few people's time, then if all it ever achieves is 50 vets not getting an earful that morning, then it would have been worth it.

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233553#233553"]You've also chosen (!) to misinterpret my idea of educating the profession.[/quote]

Did I misinterpret? You said:

In other words, the solution is to educate / train your members, nurses, managers etc that clients transfer guilt, that they are impecunious, that they are ill-mannered and so on and so on.

How is what I have written a misinterpretation? You say the answer is to train people to cope. That is another way of saying resilience. I don't disagree, I just don't think it is the answer to everything, and I think that teaching people to cope with the fact that clients are ill-mannered and thick risks furthering the idea that they all are and thereby creating more of a gulf.

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233553#233553"]It is in this sort of field of ambition and emotion that it is my firm belief that we can hopefully educate our chaps to be able to put across our case better, to explain ourselves at every single interface we have with a client - without being perceived to be playing a victim.[/quote]

"Putting across our case better" and "explaining ourselves" are things I think a film should do, in support.

In summary, I think that if we can make a film which better explains things from vets' perspective and leads to a better understanding owners, even if it's only ten of them, why would you be against that?

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Nicola Cole — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:35:19 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233549#233549"]could be viewed as being somewhere on the autistic spectrum, and as such incapable of empathising, or realising what other people are going through[/quote]

Not related to the initial post and can tangent if you actually want to discuss it but just because someone is autistic it doesn’t mean they are incapable of empathy. One of the many misconceptions.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

George Cooper — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 15:22:28 GMT

The real, practical, difficulty that I have is in pure logistics, semantics, statistics is buried in the facts - that there are 60+ million people of whom about 50% might own a pet of one flavour or another, and there are, using James' figures, 30+ thousand associated with the profession. It surely MUST be an easier taksk to reach a meaningful proportion of us, than of the public.

You've also chosen (!) to misinterpret my idea of educating the profession. You used the word "resilience" - much the buzzword of late, and probably appropriate in this debate. My preference has always been to strive to LESSEN the antipathy that many vets and nurses feel towards their clients, evidenced yet again in some of the comments in this growing thread. Such posts as I do make here and elsewhere are composed to try and increase the understanding of clients by empathy in the main. I'd like the profession, as a whole, to understand that WE are a "distress purchase" and therefore immediately seen as a source of grief and guilt - and as a part of that are viewed as an enemy, an enemy which, whatever it tries to do in terms of testing, praying, re-examining is seen as forever trying to get the client to spend yet more with us. "Gold Standard", "Informed Consent", "A Diagnosis" - as examples of our self inflicted yet inexplicable (to a client) desire to achieve OUR utmost (i.e. a result that satisfies OUR desires and not necessarily the client's). It is in this sort of field of ambition and emotion that it is my firm belief that we can hopefully educate our chaps to be able to put across our case better, to explain ourselves at every single interface we have with a client - without being perceived to be playing a victim.

This entire scenario and set of scenarios and emotions is as multi-factorial and convoluted as anything that any other stressed profession or trade or job has to endure, for we alone, perhaps with a parallel in paediatricians, have both a patient (unable to communicate or consent) and an owner/client who carries the responsibility for accepting our pronouncements - and if our focus is so consumed by "The Case" that we overlook the third party, then the stuff can hit the fan the more easily.

[And I will repeat - this entire "problem" affecting the profession is not anything I personally recognise or identify with - other then from reading other's posts/)

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 14:11:28 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233551#233551"]Once you've made your film and posted it, assuming that people will wish to watch it - and be addressed, how many times will it have to be required viewing for the message (assuming it will have a message) to be absorbed and effective.[/quote]

George Cooper George, that of course is an impossible question to answer. Half a million people have so far watched the video that started this thread. That's a lot of people. How many times would it have to be watched for the message (and of course it will have a message, else what is the point?) to be absorbed? Well, that depends. Assuming a film was impactful, a percentage will absorb it and change their behaviour straight away, whereas others never will.

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233551#233551"]As it affects our members, nurses, receptionists, managers the "solution" must lie within our own environment and involve educating, training our people to be able to cope with this onslaught, to understand that clients transfer guilt, that they are impecunious, that they are ill-mannered and thick - or whatever label one feels compelled to apply. The "fault" (and we are as bad as clients in attempting to apply blame anywhere else other than at our own door) lies in our own ability to cope with this and understand the reasons behind it. If that could be solved, not by a viral pro-vet video, but by a profession-wide training scheme, we will have applied a "solution" to where it will have the greatest benefit by far - at the very interface where the issues manifest themselves.[/quote]

I completely disagree with the idea that the solution lies entirely in educating your people that clients are impecunious, ill-mannered, thick or anything else. If anything, that merely broadens the divide between veterinary professionals and their clients.

For sure, building veterinary staff resilience is part of the solution. I agree that far.

But you seem to argue that the only answer to taking shit from clients is to learn ways of coping, or in other words, ways of taking more shit.

I think that's a very demoralising position to take. I think it's a very unhealthy message for veterinary staff. I think people who find themselves on the receiving end of abusive or rude or unkind behaviour also feel better if they are given ways to fight back.

I think also that a lot of this is down to a misunderstanding on the part of pet owners about vets. They have a very skewed perspective from the TV. The majority of those I have met think you're at best expensive and at worst ripping them off. I don't think many stop to think that the reason veterinary professionals became veterinary professionals is because they are CARING. So that accusatory post on Facebook isn't (as it might be to a banker), a mild irritation, but a dagger to the heart.

All these things (and others) are things that can be helped by education.

Now I am not saying a viral video will solve the problem on its own. Of course it wont. What I am arguing is that the solution is not just a question of lying down and taking it, but also doing things to foster a better understanding between vets and clients.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

George Cooper — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 13:28:37 GMT

Apologies for repeated posts.

Once you've made your film and posted it, assuming that people will wish to watch it - and be addressed, how many times will it have to be required viewing for the message (assuming it will have a message) to be absorbed and effective.

The "problem" - however one chooses to define it - is not "out there" and "their fault", where a solution is to try and influence deep-seated behaviours that are impacting veterinary lives. This "problem" or "problems" occur in veterinary practices or about veterinary practices, seemingly every day, either in person or by anecdote via Social Media.

As it affects our members, nurses, receptionists, managers the "solution" must lie within our own environment and involve educating, training our people to be able to cope with this onslaught, to understand that clients transfer guilt, that they are impecunious, that they are ill-mannered and thick - or whatever label one feels compelled to apply. The "fault" (and we are as bad as clients in attempting to apply blame anywhere else other than at our own door) lies in our own ability to cope with this and understand the reasons behind it. If that could be solved, not by a viral pro-vet video, but by a profession-wide training scheme, we will have applied a "solution" to where it will have the greatest benefit by far - at the very interface where the issues manifest themselves.

I normally eschew the need to relate personal instances and examples, preferring to discuss in broad terms, but until I fell foul of a corporate takeover of the family oriented practice in the Valleys that was my home for 16 years, the ONLY "problem" I had, apart from two at the hands of clients (which I knew actually as they were happening) was with the management that attempted to alter a most successful atmosphere and environment. We just did not get complaints.

RE: What being a veterinarian really takes

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:51:06 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233549#233549"] Adopting a hectoring tone to an oblivious and unresponsive public, no matter how finitely aimed and addressed will quite simply stir up even more ribaldry and piss-taking trollisms of unpleasant point scoring ridicule.[/quote]

er - who said anything about adopting a hectoring tone.

That's not what I have in mind at all.

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/30001/what-being-a-veterinarian-really-takes/233549#233549"]Unless you have discovered a hitherto un-unearthed solution this will be doomed.[/quote]

Notes of 'Dad's Army'! "You're all dooooomed, doomed do you hear me"

George Cooper - in my experience, best to see how an idea pans out before pissing all over it!!!