Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Julian Earl — Fri, 13 Aug 2021 08:58:22 GMT

[quote userid="6897" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29951/welfare-issues-in-modern-pentathlon/232169#232169"]Well, the way things are going that may be the answer. People talk about climate change heralding 'the end of the world' - but without humans the world would certainly continue on its merry way as it has done for billions of years. I guess Homo sapiens will prove to be a mere blip on the[/quote]

Well Bob, Remind me to wish you a Happy hristmas and New Year in due course for that cheery post!!

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

bob lehner — Fri, 13 Aug 2021 08:47:13 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29951/welfare-issues-in-modern-pentathlon/232148#232148"]Just like pollution/global warming, the only real solution is for humans to disappear. Everything else is patching the patched patch. [/quote]

Well, the way things are going that may be the answer. People talk about climate change heralding 'the end of the world' - but without humans the world would certainly continue on its merry way as it has done for billions of years. I guess Homo sapiens will prove to be a mere blip on the landscape when viewed in the geological timeframe.

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Nicola Cole — Fri, 13 Aug 2021 07:57:19 GMT

Having just watched the event via the link posted (1am finish!) the majority of it makes for horrific viewing.

Why didn’t Saint Boy get pulled out after his first round? He was obviously distressed. Surely someone in charge should be responsible for the welfare of the horses? He should never have been allowed to jump the second round (in my humble opinion).

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 12 Aug 2021 13:02:15 GMT

[quote userid="6897" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29951/welfare-issues-in-modern-pentathlon/232133#232133"]Historically horses were dreadfully abused by the military - nothing glamorous, valiant, noble or selfless from the equine perspective in that area! Similarly when used for transportation or muscle power for agriculture etc.[/quote]

But Bob, to some extent all animals were/are. If we go down this route then PETA is right and we should have no pets, no farms no nothing.

Even pets are kept solely for our gratification. Even worse than dogs for rabbits, birds, exotics.

What is ethical and moral is fluent and changes from one society and one generation to another. If we look too much in to it, the only real and definitive solution is no pets or animals to be kept.

Just like pollution/global warming, the only real solution is for humans to disappear. Everything else is patching the patched patch.

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

bob lehner — Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:54:28 GMT

[quote userid="2180" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29951/welfare-issues-in-modern-pentathlon/232116#232116"]As a profession we've been pretty vocal about condemning indiscriminate dog breeding, brachycephalism, ear cropping and the like but I suppose pet owners and breeders are easy marks. When it comes to the harms caused to horses, though, we have a tendency to look at our feet and shuffle awkwardly. I wonder if now we'll finally have the guts to speak out, as a profession? I hope so[/quote][quote userid="2180" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29951/welfare-issues-in-modern-pentathlon/232116#232116"]From an animal welfare perspective equestrian activities are hard to defend at the best of times and this display of wholesale abuse - and that's not a term I use lightly - has just played out in full view of the whole world.[/quote]

Yes indeed - a very interesting topic and very little discussed.

I guess we Brits would see ourselves as a nation of horse lovers - but on closer examination I don't think this always holds up.

Historically horses were dreadfully abused by the military - nothing glamorous, valiant, noble or selfless from the equine perspective in that area! Similarly when used for transportation or muscle power for agriculture etc.

Nowadays of course most horses are kept for leisure, entertainment or sport, but ultimately for the owner's gratification and in particular for that odd human desire to compete against others. Welfare is frequently poorly addressed.

Take, just as one example, the rather weird discipline of dressage. Why is it considered good to see horses performing mind-numbingly repetitive and exaggerated rather unnatural feats of athleticism, just because we find it aesthetically pleasing to see a horse in a a nicely 'rounded' outline and being totally obedient - which may require all manner of unpleasant bits of kit to achieve? How many of these animals end up lame and/or mentally disturbed. The use of animals in circuses is generally discredited these days - but is dressage any different? High-value individuals may be stabled 24/7 and never allowed to graze naturally or mix socially with their fellows, as their natural instincts dictate.

Equine vets devote much time and research into identifying ever more obscure types of lameness - but seldom ask why these are occurring. Interestingly the recently publicised DC case was actually looking at a link between rider ability and equine pathology.

A huge topic - I'm only scratching the surface....

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Bob Russell — Wed, 11 Aug 2021 14:01:57 GMT

Fascinating to hear the views from far more experienced vets here! Many thanks!

This is not a sport I am in any way familiar with and I was wondering where these horses come from.

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

jd2008 — Wed, 11 Aug 2021 01:05:34 GMT

[quote userid="2186" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29951/welfare-issues-in-modern-pentathlon/232117#232117"]I did not see Natalya Coyle's round but from the still photos I saw it looks like she has a good seat and light hands. She graduated into the sport from the Meath Hunt Pony Club; I believe the Irish Pony Club has a strong tetrathlon scene and from memory the Meath are a big club with a lot of good showjumpers, eventers and mounted games riders. Watching pundits wimble on about "the best riders can build an instant rapport with any horse" I wondered if Ben Maher could have got Constantin round clear where she did not .[/quote]

Yep, she was one of the handful with a decent seat. She did struggle a little with striding but, to be fair, 1.2m is probably too big of an ask for this format. 90cm would be fairer to both riders and horses.

I'll admit I've taken only a passing interest in MP until now but my father-in-law used to compete many, many years ago and he has reflected many of your comments, particularly regarding the increasing trend for selecting fast runners first in the hope of training the skills required for the other disciplines.

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Virginia Campbell — Wed, 11 Aug 2021 00:48:28 GMT

I've seen a suggestion that the jumping phase should be run under the auspices of the FEI, who would not have allowed such a complete sh*tshow to happen. The UIPM have presided over embarrassing debacles before - Beijing was a particular lowlight- sat back and learned nothing. Horses regularly crashing into fences is not acceptable.

It may be that the horse phase is just not possible to do humanely at this level. The worst horses were 20 and 22 years old, ex top level jumpers. I suppose nobody is going to let a decent young horse potentially be ruined, and many more temperamentally suitable RDA type animals wouldn't be capable of jumping that course. So you are left with some talented and old but fit calm schoolmasters... and some that are still as hot as they were in their youth- the fire never dies down in some nutters- getting more set in their ways and requiring their usual rider's light hand on the gag rein. And, although they have to pass a vetting, is it to FEI standard? What state are the backs and hocks of a 22 year horse that jumped at a high level for years in? A skilful rider with a light seat might be able to get away with such a horse so a subtle unsoundness may not show; a hamfisted novice bashing down on kissing spines and hashing up a stride so the horse with arthritic hocks has to either stand right back and do a huge leap, or get right under the fence and do an awkward vertical takeoff and corkscrew over the fence, with a chuck in the mouth from the unbalanced pilot for good measure, isn't going to end well.

Hopefully the new elimination phase will encourage countries to select pony clubby types who happen to be athletic and have been taught to fence and shoot, rather than crack runners and swimmers who have been plonked on a horse as an afterthought. They're meant to emulate cavalry officers- so the horsemanship ought to be central and the other 4 skills bolt-ons. Having said that, it's no guarantee of success. I did not see Natalya Coyle's round but from the still photos I saw it looks like she has a good seat and light hands. She graduated into the sport from the Meath Hunt Pony Club; I believe the Irish Pony Club has a strong tetrathlon scene and from memory the Meath are a big club with a lot of good showjumpers, eventers and mounted games riders. Watching pundits wimble on about "the best riders can build an instant rapport with any horse" I wondered if Ben Maher could have got Constantin round clear where she did not .

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

jd2008 — Tue, 10 Aug 2021 22:34:58 GMT

The whole women's showjumping phase can be viewed here (it starts at the 2hr 58min mark). It's grim stuff. The slow-mo clips are particularly gruesome.
For what it's worth, the men's event was no better.

The horses have been getting a lot of unwarranted flack. Frankly they were bl**dy saints who, despite being hindered every step of the way, for the most part got their riders round a 1.2m course without killing them. And that's no mean feat considering the abysmal horsemanship displayed by every rider with the exception of about 4 or 5. (I should say that it was a blessed relief to watch Kate French's round).

Only the aforementioned small handful of riders had anything close to an independent seat. Very, very few had any ability to stride their horse into a fence. Horses had to cope with riders landing on their necks after fences, hauling on the bit to keep balance, sawing at the bit to turn and moderate speed, and battering spurs into the horses' flanks as they couldn't control their legs.

Saint Boy had a particularly rough time in his first round. I noticed he was in a running gag. That's not a bit of kit you throw on a horse for sh*ts and giggles so I can assume he had been jumped successfully in it previously. Unfortunately neither of his riders seemed to understand the need for very careful hands. Consequently his head was forced way too high so he ended up being asked to jump fences he couldn't see. This was the case with many of the other rounds with reins way too short and riders far too forward leaving the horse with no neck, giving it no option but to squeeze in an extra half stride and bunny hop the fence. Running gags are painful, particularly in inexperienced hands and Saint Boy was obviously distressed throughout his first round. It's no bl**dy wonder he was genuinely fearful going into his second. A moderately competent rider (and coach) would have realised that beating the living cr*p out of him wasn't going to help.

There was a lot of other whip abuse too, which would have resulted in disqualification in any other discipline. Some of it was pure spite on the part of the rider; for example, whipping the neck after a refusal.

And these are apparently the best in the world.

The gathering outcry from other equestrian disciplines and the various fields of equine science is interesting to observe. From an animal welfare perspective equestrian activities are hard to defend at the best of times and this display of wholesale abuse - and that's not a term I use lightly - has just played out in full view of the whole world.

As a profession we've been pretty vocal about condemning indiscriminate dog breeding, brachycephalism, ear cropping and the like but I suppose pet owners and breeders are easy marks. When it comes to the harms caused to horses, though, we have a tendency to look at our feet and shuffle awkwardly. I wonder if now we'll finally have the guts to speak out, as a profession? I hope so.

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Bob Russell — Tue, 10 Aug 2021 13:00:32 GMT

I have only seen the bits in the news on-line. I did not see any clear cut abuse. A bit of a thump that I doubt the horse even noticed.

What I did see was a near hysterical rider which is bound to create a problem with almost any horse. My horse was always very sympathetic when I was upset but we knew each other really well!!

I did not see the same horse perform for the Russian rider earlier in the day so it is not clear whether it was unsuitable or had been stressed/scared by the earlier event.

There was a reserve horse that could have been chosen therefore the rider did not have to ride this horse.

A rider of this calibre should have been able to get on almost any well schooled horse and completed the round. Why this horse proved unsuitable and why the reserve was not ridden are questions that should be asked.

The point of the exercise is precisely to give a measure of horsemanship and on occasions a horse may not perform for a strange rider. Part of the sport.

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

niamhjl — Mon, 09 Aug 2021 07:05:11 GMT

I was really shocked by this incident - until this hit the news, I hadn’t heard of modern pentathlon (and I am a follower of equestrian sports!) and had no idea that there was a sport at Olympic level which involved competing on borrowed horses.

I too rode at university level on borrowed horses, but those weekends were more about socialising and having some fun than serious competing - it was fairly low level competition and the stakes were nowhere near as high as an Olympic medal!

the bond between horse and rider plays a huge role in success, at any level, but especially at the highest level I think. A horse that you don’t know, in such a high-stakes, emotionally charged situation can only be a recipe for disaster! The horsemanship that I witnessed was poor, and I am struggling to see the point of putting both horse and rider through this. I believe a petition has been started and there will be several letters like yours arriving at the UIMP, so hopefully things will change!

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 21:18:14 GMT

As I may have mentioned, I couldn't care less about the Olympic Games, but middle daughter showed me the videos.

That was a seriously scewed up horse and the rider seemed to have little idea other than thrashing it. The supposed punch was a pretty feeble motion and I doubt if the horse even noticed it.

The idea as far as I can grasp it is was not to see how high a jumping score you can get (as you might on your own horse) but how well you can communicate with a strange horse to achieve the best you can.

If the horse you are allotted is having a really bad day and you don't do well – that's tough luck but an inevitable risk of involving another live animal beside yourself in a competition. What is so blinkin' important about winning? Are there financial rewards?

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

bob lehner — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 20:54:19 GMT

Seemed to me, from, the little I've seen, that the horse was completely unsuitable for the job in hand, for whatever reason - and the rider was worse than useless. The brief clip I saw showed the coach sticking a hand out to stop the horse reversing into the perimeter fence of the arena. Hardly 'hitting it' in my book and surely the least of its worries.

As a student I rode for the British Universities eventing team in numerous competitions at home and throughout Europe - always with a pool of horse provided by the hosts. it was always a bit pot-luck what you got - but the skill was in making the best of it, with just 20 minutes to suss out the horse. Ideally all the horses would be of a comparable standard - but difficult to be achieve in practice.

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Joyce Whitehead — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 12:42:57 GMT

It was awful to watch. Unfortunately the new format is to start with riding though…

RE: Welfare issues in Modern Pentathlon

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 08 Aug 2021 11:48:57 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29951/welfare-issues-in-modern-pentathlon"]reaction of the leading German rider and coach when the horse they were allotted refused to jump[/quote]

That really was heart breaking to watch ...on all levels! The poor horse was terrified but the rider was distraught.

The format is being completely changed for Paris, with competitors being eliminated as it progresses and the whole pentathlon condensed into 90 minutes. It will be interesting to see if that improves welfare, with having fewer rides, or increase it due to the pressures the athletes will feel to stay in the competition.

At least the coach was thrown out of the Olympics!