Sexism

RE: Sexism

Bob Russell — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 10:53:14 GMT

Is this thread really going anywhere?

My wife does the gardening because she likes it and has the time. When she goes out she dresses to impress other women not men.

My daughters 14th birthday I have to admit I did not know where to look because there was so much flesh on display. I did find it a bit uncomfortable!

I tend to wear pretty much similar clothes whatever I am doing so pretty boring! My night apparel is my business!!

Girls are most certainly not less distracted by hormones! My granddaughter plays with dolls and toy cars. Water pistols fine but other guns discouraged!!

We are all different but should be equal and stereotyping is fraught with dangers.

RE: Sexism

George Cooper — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 10:40:20 GMT

Er, Guys and Gals, do anybod aksherly care, cos two plus 2 is allus 5, innit?

RE: Sexism

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 08:10:52 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/232290#232290"]It is about things like which students choose to knuckle down and study, which students feel academic achievement is going to be most beneficial to their lives, which students aren't distracted by their hormones, which students aren't embarrassed about being seen as a nerd etc etc[/quote]

But these things are behavioural, Gillian, and they may be innate. It is possible that girls are less embarrassed to be seen as a nerd. It is possible that girls are less distracted by their hormones. It is possible that girls apply themselves to a task (or knuckle down) more than boys.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/232290#232290"]You really are missing the point Arlo![/quote]

No I'm not. I'm just disagreeing!

RE: Sexism

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 17 Aug 2021 06:41:18 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/232288#232288"]I wouldn’t have thought there were any great expectations placed on girls to outperform boys at maths, and yet they did.[/quote]

You really are missing the point Arlo! It is about things like which students choose to knuckle down and study, which students feel academic achievement is going to be most beneficial to their lives, which students aren't distracted by their hormones, which students aren't embarrassed about being seen as a nerd etc etc. Not genetically inherent ability, just external influences.

For example, girls in single sex education are far more likely to choose to study STEM subjects, and subsequently enter these types of professions. This is not a sex related trait!

RE: Sexism

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 16 Aug 2021 21:46:08 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/232286#232286"] Boys and girls do not yet have the same expectations put on them or the same experiences of life[/quote]

I wouldn’t have thought there were any great expectations placed on girls to outperform boys at maths, and yet they did.

Neither of us is going to win this one! You think there are no gender-based behaviour differences. I.accept you might be right, but I think it’s hugely unlikely. But neither of us know, er, so that’s that!

RE: Sexism

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 16 Aug 2021 21:05:46 GMT

You're cherry picking the quotes and taking them out of context!

For example, before that they also say:

"But we know there are a bunch of societal expectations around gender and so on, and we are very susceptible to those, we internalise them and behave differently because of them. So it’s an important part of the story: what’s internalised by boys and girls and why they behave in the ways they are expected to behave.”

Yes, there are differences in academic achievement. But it is still impossible to say that is due to sex (or gender). There are too many confounding factors. Boys and girls do not yet have the same expectations put on them or the same experiences of life. Their behavioural differences could just be due to their differing experiences rather than their sex.

RE: Sexism

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 16 Aug 2021 19:41:28 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/232283#232283"]Did you actually read them? They answer your question...especially the guardian article.[/quote]

They don't actually. Take the Grauniad. Full of contradictions:

“Neuroscientists and psychologists are pretty sceptical of the idea that there are sex-based differences in our brains that would explain the schooling differences that we see."

And then later:

“The thing I know from being a [maths] teacher, and I had 35 years in the classroom, is that typically girls will work more steadily,” Golding said.

"The outcome is that boys and girls engage differently with school, with girls likely to spend their time in the classroom more productively."

"girls’ better performance under teacher assessment"

Er, these are all behavioural differences.

So the article says neuroscientists are sceptical of sex-based differences, and then enthusiastically embraces the idea of sex-based differences.

It would appear from the exam results that they are giving girls an advantage.

RE: Sexism

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 16 Aug 2021 19:09:55 GMT

Did you actually read them? They answer your question...especially the guardian article.

RE: Sexism

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 16 Aug 2021 14:56:24 GMT

Sort of hesitant to reopen this can of worms, but if you are one of those that argue that there are no behavioural differences between men and women, and we all have equal ability when it comes to non-physical activities, then how do you reconcile that belief with this:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/did-results-day-prove-girls-are-really-cleverer-than-boys-vmd9ghgtl

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/gcse-results-girls-boys-smart-b1901508.html

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2021/aug/13/girls-overtake-boys-in-a-level-and-gcse-maths-so-are-they-smarter

RE: Sexism

Bibs — Tue, 10 Aug 2021 08:55:39 GMT

It depends whether you believe in equality or equity.

RE: Sexism

Clive Ansell — Tue, 10 Aug 2021 08:09:07 GMT

I have 2 friends; one works in haulage and the other is a service manager at an Audi dealership, both have predominantly male workforces, and they are both trying to recruit more women drivers and technicians respectively, and as such female appications are looked on more favourably.

Is this sexist or genderist?

RE: Sexism

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 10 Aug 2021 07:41:35 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231739#231739"]Are you really saying that I am being sexist because I might point out to my daughter that she is not as physically strong as your average male hod carrier, and might find it easier to be successful in another career? I find that equally dumbfounding![/quote]

Having read this whole thread in one sitting the thought that came to mind was that it's not that many years since women would have been advised that they couldn't be farm animal vets because they weren't physically strong enough. There are now many women working in farm animal practice and I think (hope) that this doesn't happen any more.

I also suspect that many children when advised by a parent that they might find doing something difficult, and that parent tries to dissuade them from doing it, it might make them more likely to want to do it to prove the parent wrong.

RE: Sexism

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 12:39:03 GMT

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231858#231858"]Hi Arlo. Isn't it all about "lived experience" these days? Your "lived experience" is as valid as the next man's or woman's or person identifying as something other than the aforementioned sexes.[/quote]

Hi Stephen, I dunno, I thought it was all about alternative facts these days! But maybe they are tantamount to the same thing.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231853#231853"]Jeeeeez..... he just came up with the first deliberately silly example that came to mind[/quote]

Zigactly. Now let me pour myself another drink.

[quote userid="5726" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231847#231847"]I would challenge your opinion that some of your views aren't sexist.[/quote]

KMurphy I think sexism is a spectrum condition.

RE: Sexism

Stephen Pointing — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 12:12:35 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231838#231838"]My opinion is based on reason (whether or not you agree with it) and actual experience (whether right or wrong)[/quote]

Hi Arlo. Isn't it all about "lived experience" these days? Your "lived experience" is as valid as the next man's or woman's or person identifying as something other than the aforementioned sexes. If its good enough for Meghan and Harry then I'm sure its good enough for you and ought to be for Gillian and K Murphy too.

RE: Sexism

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 11:22:16 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231850#231850"]

Bibs said:
Arlo, you should read back over the post were you compared telling a boy not to aspire to be a wonderbra model with telling a girl not to aspire to be a F1 driver.

I wonder how long and hard he had to think to find a profession he wouldn't tell his son to pursue, that he ended up with something a man is anatomically excluded from.

If he'd said synchronised swimming, I would have agreed that a man would have a tough ride. But I wouldn't have said they couldn't have done it on the basis of their ability.

[/quote]

Jeeeeez..... he just came up with the first deliberately silly example that came to mind... trying to keep it light while making a point. A common conversational ploy, but lost on the humourless.

This thread, 20 pages so far, has become about nothing but slapping labels. Sexist! Therefore condemned!

RE: Sexism

Bibs — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 10:29:45 GMT

I mean I’ve seen plenty men on the beach with big enough boobs to be a wonderbra model. It’s just not the aesthetic the advertising people are going for rather than pure ability to have the photo taken with the bra on. If we’re going to be technical about it.

RE: Sexism

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 10:08:08 GMT

[quote userid="11590" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231848#231848"]Arlo, you should read back over the post were you compared telling a boy not to aspire to be a wonderbra model with telling a girl not to aspire to be a F1 driver.[/quote]

I wonder how long and hard he had to think to find a profession he wouldn't tell his son to pursue, that he ended up with something a man is anatomically excluded from.

If he'd said synchronised swimming, I would have agreed that a man would have a tough ride. But I wouldn't have said they couldn't have done it on the basis of their ability.

RE: Sexism

Bibs — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 09:21:38 GMT

Arlo, you should read back over the post were you compared telling a boy not to aspire to be a wonderbra model with telling a girl not to aspire to be a F1 driver. You lost me around there. I don't disagree that there are differences but when you make broad assumptions you will be wrong a significant amount of the time (even if your own limited experience tell you otherwise), for that reason we should all have open minds. Not just actions, but minds as well, because telling people they can't do things does impact what they actually do.

RE: Sexism

KMurphy — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 09:03:08 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231838#231838"]what a breathtakingly patronising post to start the day[/quote]

It wasn't intended as such. I'm sorry you read it that way. I meant that it's clear you're not advocating that women should stay at home or that you're "a godawful sexist chauvinist pig" but at the same time I would challenge your opinion that some of your views aren't sexist.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231838#231838"]Two women call me a sexist[/quote]

Didn't this start because other people ( I don't know if they were all women) called you out on remarks you made regarding the hedge trimmer?

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231838#231838"] I also recognise that there are physical differences between men and women[/quote]

As do I. I don't think I ever argued otherwise.

RE: Sexism

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 08:08:04 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231841#231841"]Lol...there are other dictionaries out there.[/quote]

Sure, but even by your own examples, it is stretching things to call me prejudiced.

The first definition gives the primary definition as injury or damage as a result of ignorance of rights. That discounts me. Secondary definition is just a preconceived idea or judgement. That's too unspecific. I might have a preconceived idea that the weather will be nice today.

The second definition you gave was "an unfair or unreasonable opinion especially when formed without enough thought or knowledge."

I have given this a lot of thought, and who is to say that my opinion is unfair or unreasonable?

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231841#231841"]It's quite a depressing thought that people won't think they're prejudiced as long as their own reason and life experience backs up their opinion. [/quote]

Sorry, but it's equally quite depressing that people run around calling other people prejudiced as long as their own reason and life experience backs up their opinion. I still don't see any convincing argument that you are right and I am wrong (or vice versa, actually).

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231841#231841"]if I do truly believe Chinese women aren't as good as English women at any particular task[/quote]

False premis. I have never said I think all women are not as good at anything.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231841#231841"]Men WILL have an advantage over women, but men MAY also have physiological disadvantages. Curious choice of words [/quote]

I only meant that inasmuch as it is a fact that men WILL have a physiological advantage that I can think of (less muscle mass), but I only suspect that men may have some physiological disadvantages, because unlike muscle mass, I don't know what they are. Nothing to read into that.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231842#231842"]And I agree with KMurphy. [/quote]

I probably could have figured that out for myself!!

RE: Sexism

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 08:04:25 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231838#231838"]

KMurphy Good morning, and gosh, what a breathtakingly patronising post to start the day!

Whatever I think of your arguments, I don't think I would stoop to that. But hey ho, each to their own

[/quote]

By the way, I genuinely didn't see her post as being patronising. More like resigned defeat. And I agree with KMurphy.

RE: Sexism

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 07:56:13 GMT

Lol...there are other dictionaries out there.

It's quite a depressing thought that people won't think they're prejudiced as long as their own reason and life experience backs up their opinion. I'd like to think we are all open to allowing the life experience of others to influence us.

It's like me telling a chinese woman that it isn't actually prejudice if I do truly believe Chinese women aren't as good as English women at any particular task, because it is true in my experience! Reason would tell me that would be a ridiculous thought.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231838#231838"]However, I also recognise that there are physical differences between men and women which mean that men will have an advantage over women in some specific areas (men may also have physiological disadvantages in others). [/quote]

Men WILL have an advantage over women, but men MAY also have physiological disadvantages. Curious choice of words

Can you not see?

RE: Sexism

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 07:03:07 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231827#231827"]Arlo mentioned that he was just being realistic, accepting what the world is and working with it. [/quote]

Gillian Mostyn I wouldn't say that I accept the world for what it is. I specifically accept those things which seem unchangeable and work with them (such as the physiological difference between men and women, or the passing of the moon). I am ALL for change when it comes to things that are changeable.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231832#231832"]So it's not prejudice because in your experience you're right? [/quote]

It's not about right or wrong. Prejudice is 'preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience'. My opinion is based on reason (whether or not you agree with it) and actual experience (whether right or wrong). I am therefore categorically not prejudiced as defined in the dictionary.

[quote userid="5726" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231834#231834"]

Okay. You just keep telling yourself that.

I don't think anybody believes you're a terrible human being for the ideas you have. They're fairly harmless and quaint. I know you're not trying to hurt women. I think you are just a product of your environment.

[/quote]

KMurphy Good morning, and gosh, what a breathtakingly patronising post to start the day!

Whatever I think of your arguments, I don't think I would stoop to that. But hey ho, each to their own.

To recap:

I argue for equality of opportunity for the genders. I genuinely believe that quite passionately, both because I recognise the unfairness that has gone down in history, and because of my hopes for my daughter.

However, I also recognise that there are physical differences between men and women which mean that men will have an advantage over women in some specific areas (men may also have physiological disadvantages in others).

I also argue that given that we know that hormones, for example, affect behaviour, and there are substantially different hormones in men and women, it is plausible, even likely that there are behavioural differences between the genders. By extension, it would make sense that such behavioural differences may confer advantages on each of the sexes (by no means just men) when it comes to performing different tasks.

I therefore suggest it would be a good idea to identify those differences and take advantage of them.

In return, you tell me that is wrong, that I am a sexist (pejorative) as a statement of fact, with nothing whatsoever to show that I am wrong.

[quote userid="5726" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231834#231834"]Women are telling you your views are sexist[/quote]

No they are not! You sentence implies women per se are telling me that. That's misleading. Just two women are telling me that. And in fact, one woman in this thread expressed enthusiastic agreement with my idea that difference should be recognised, celebrated and respected. So it's not even 100% of the women in this discussion.

[quote userid="5726" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231834#231834"]but the dictionary says you're not so that's that[/quote]

Er, well yes, actually! Two women call me a sexist, against the dictionary, which explains that I am not. I'll go with the dictionary! Sorry, I am not being flippant. I am being serious. If the reference for our language is wrong, then the reference needs changing.

[quote userid="5726" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231834#231834"] I don't believe there is any progress to be made here.[/quote]

I think we can agree on that. I must say, it has been a really interesting and challenging discussion, but like religion, it is a belief-based discussion, so I suppose it was always doomed to end in disagreement, especially in the polarised environment that is the written word.

Still, I think I come away with a better understanding of the arguments against the idea of difference between the sexes. I think (and hope) you at least understand how someone might think there are differences between the sexes without being some godawful sexist mail chauvinist pig.

RE: Sexism

KMurphy — Wed, 04 Aug 2021 05:04:08 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231831#231831"]So according to the dictionary, I am not a sexist[/quote]

Okay. You just keep telling yourself that.

There's not much point continuing this thread really. Women are telling you your views are sexist but the dictionary says you're not so that's that. I don't believe there is any progress to be made here.

RE: Sexism

Nicola Cole — Tue, 03 Aug 2021 23:27:18 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29932/sexism/231827#231827"]I, however, think that if the world is getting it wrong, we should fight for change. Some people may think I'm being unreasonable not to just accept the status quo. But it's the only way to make progress.[/quote]

Ah, you see, I would say the person pushing for change is highly likely making a reasonable request, therefore is being reasonable as opposed to unreasonable….

So I agree with you (that we should fight for change), but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to do that-hence my confusion!