Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 22:21:45 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231512#231512"] Good. Because it would be wrong. It really is a black and white situation.[/quote]

Obviously, and without question, or so it appears and it ends a vet's career!

Suspension for a period? Reinstatement after review with contrition?

It is the worst veterinary sanction possible but is it the worst offence?

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:56:53 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231511#231511"]No[/quote]

Good. Because it would be wrong. It really is a black and white situation.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 21:47:53 GMT

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 17:39:14 GMT

Anthony. Have you ever written or signed an official document that you absolutely knew to be false, regardless of good intentions?

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:58:31 GMT

I would. but only if I'd applied for permission!! in writing!!,, and signed! and stamped! of course !!)-)) and in f'ing triplicult

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:30:41 GMT

Someone shoot me.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:28:15 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231498#231498"]T H A T I S N O T T H E P P O I N T[/quote]

But it should bbe!!

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:36:20 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231497#231497"]And please don't say I'm going "round and round"[/quote]

But you are. All you do is repeat the same line that 'no animals were harmed' therefore it was unfair and Dr Dyson should not have been convicted.

Thing is, we have the rule of law in this country. You can argue the law is an ass, in which case you can campaign to change the law. What you can't do is just cherry pick the bits of law that you dislike and argue that because you personally disagree, it is an unfair law and should not apply.

Frankly, I would like to get drunk down the pub and drive home. I think it is perfectly safe for me to do so. By your logic, I should be able to forge a letter from Priti Patel allowing me to drive pissed.

In this case, forging a document which falsely certifies something so obviously runs counter to the values of a professional, that I can hardly believe you try and argue otherwise.

I would understand if you argued that the research in question should not have required approval. Fine, campaign on that issue. But you can't seriously argue that it is acceptable for an individual to decide for themselves what requires approval or not, and then fake a letter from the Home Office to support their decision.

Your argument was that the research only involved a thermometer up the bum, something so trivial it is ridiculous to strike someone off for it.

T H A T I S N O T T H E P P O I N T

You say the thermometer is trivial, but surely you can see that if we allow individuals to make that call, they would probably end up never seeking ethics approval.

And what do you think that would do for animal welfare?

And do you think it creates confidence in the profession to have senior figures forging Home Office letters?

Tony, everyone understands that you think forging a home office letter is a trivial matter, and Dr Dyson should not be struck off for it. I think you may find you are in a minority of one.

Please do NOT post more on this thread unless you have something substantive to add other than you think she should not have been struck off because no animals were harmed or her intentions were good.

Incidentally, I think to have an illustrious career ended in this way is dreadfully sad. I don't know whether Dr Dyson suddenly took leave of her senses, ie was somehow not thinking clearly, or aware of what she was doing. If that were the case, I would have nothing but sympathy.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:23:50 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231496#231496"]

That is not the issue here. it is not about the taking of ponies' temperatures.

What is, is the creating of a bogus home office official and writing a letter purporting to come from him, with a signature. Fraud. May even be a criminal offence, I don't know.

[/quote]

In that case I say the law is an ass, and reconsideration should taken place in light of the aims, object and circumstances.

Would the false certification result in harm to any animal or financial gain to any party?

Actually, the reverse in fact!

Any sentient being would have ordered the permission to be properly sought [but only, some might say, to satisfy the jobs-worths around the place].

And permission to be withheld until properly gained, and an admonishment to be more mindful of regulation in future!

And please don't say I'm going "round and round". Just say you disagree, and give common-sense reasons and or show who wins and what loses!

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Clive Ansell — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 14:03:16 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231493#231493"] I don't see how falsely "gaining" permission to take ponies' temperatures can be a crime of any magnitude.[/quote]

That is not the issue here. it is not about the taking of ponies' temperatures.

What is, is the creating of a bogus home office official and writing a letter purporting to come from him, with a signature. Fraud. May even be a criminal offence, I don't know.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 13:26:11 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231491#231491"]Playing devil's advocate: Alternatively, it could be a practice that occurs more than we know about and she just happened to get caught ? she may have done it before ? [/quote]

Those allowing discarded racehorses to be sold for slaughter for money, which is surely "gain", seems to be occurring without sanction.

I don't see how falsely "gaining" permission to take ponies' temperatures can be a crime of any magnitude.

Or perhaps "gain" never get quantified in law when just the welfare of animals is concerned.?

I am amazed that this decision is still being so defended!

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Clive Ansell — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 12:34:47 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231489#231489"]I am assuming some degree of 'madness' took hold, presumably she was under a lot of pressure.[/quote]

Maybe?

Playing devil's advocate: Alternatively, it could be a practice that occurs more than we know about and she just happened to get caught ? she may have done it before ?

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231489#231489"]It does not excuse the behaviour and I fully understand the DC decision.[/quote]

Agree 100%

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Bob Russell — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 10:50:59 GMT

Nonsense! Gain or lack of gain is only one of many factors in DC cases.

There was gain in as much as the study was more likely to be published with Home Office documentation.

For reconsideration for re-admission to the register it is likely that contrition be seen, insight into wrong doing and an undertaking not to repeat the transgression (not conviction).

I have not met Prof Dyson but I agree that her loss to the profession is significant and would welcome her return.

I don't see the idea of her retirement being constructive and many people of her age will suffer major hardship taking early retirement. The impact on mental health and finance is likely to be significant.

My sympathies are still with Prof Dyson because I am assuming some degree of 'madness' took hold, presumably she was under a lot of pressure. It does not excuse the behaviour and I fully understand the DC decision.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 10:37:36 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231485#231485"]It does not mean she cannot take action to be restored to the register.[/quote]

Indeed, and a key element of proof for conviction is the gain that may, or may not, have ensued.

In this case no proven gain to persons, and because of the conviction, none to ponies so far.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Bob Russell — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 08:55:55 GMT

It is terrible and sad that a much respected colleague has got into this mess.

The DC decision is neither terrible or sad, really inevitable.

It does not mean she cannot take action to be restored to the register.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Clive Ansell — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 07:39:36 GMT

Is it just me, but why are the words terrible and sadness being used?

Creating a bogus government official and forging a letter purporting to be from him is a pre meditated, deliberate and fraudulant act, and is gravely serious. There may well be genuine extenuating circumstances, I don't know, but they don't alter the gravity of the offence.

Removal from the register is the only option really.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Thu, 22 Jul 2021 10:58:42 GMT

I don't think the "other side" presented any medical evidence at all. Nor was any other reason giving possible advantage to Dr Dyson, just a lot of sadness.

In the meantime, and it seems forever, small horses will be overloaded so there is not circle as far as they are concerned.

And, by the way, now the Go-Cat catastrophe does seem to be wiped from history, and the real cause not even mentioned in passing.....

The profession seems to have changed, slavishly following any regulation or decision from above without question, and even changing history.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Bob Russell — Thu, 22 Jul 2021 08:38:25 GMT

We are going round in circles but medical evidence can be presented by both sides. There is speculation, not additional facts in the various newspapers. Some very unpleasant posts as well.

Fraud and deception took place therefore the decision cannot be reconsidered without additional evidence.

Just because something is redacted does not mean it was not considered.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Thu, 22 Jul 2021 03:49:38 GMT

On further consideration may I say this:

I have just now read the official report of the hearing.

There are redactions at 16[v1], 30, 47, 54, 55, 56, 57,and(vi) Dr RT - (called as an expert medical witness);

Much is presented by Dr Dyson's legal team of her mental state, which did not appear to have been considered or taken into account. [see redaction above]

As I know personally the NHS has a very comprehensive service to assess and monitor mental state and deterioration.

This includes, as in my case, a MRI and repeated, and repeating, assessments of memory and cognitive function.

These should have been ordered and followed by suitable later dates for reports and possible reassessment.

Further details and interpretation are provided in various newspapers and sources simply by searching "Dr Dyson vet" etc.

I hope the devastating decision is quickly reconsidered in the light of the above..

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 11:50:26 GMT

"here's none so blind as those who will not see."

I'm out Arlo.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 11:35:06 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231383#231383"]Surely the disparity and injustice is obvious even to the meanest intelligence??[/quote]

I think we could go round in circles a bit here! Tony, once you have made your point, please leave it at that, because repeating it is not going to change people's minds.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 11:26:50 GMT

But they are connected, as I have said, or implied, I thought obviously!

On the one hand a vet did something which resulted in no harm to any living creature then being offered [as far as we know] no

help or support even though no harm to any living creature, in fact almost certainly, at least, the likelihood of help to the overloaded small horses.

Adding that the form needed actually did not impact on the situation at all. just broke the rules!

In the other [with lovely correct forms] harm, pain, and distress to horses occurred and was documented.

Surely the disparity and injustice is obvious even to the meanest intelligence??

I hope she is able and wants to appeal!

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Bob Russell — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 11:13:58 GMT

Start a new thread. It is horrendous but perhaps better humanely slaughtered rather than left to rot knee deep in a field in the hands of someone with little experience or money to provide care.

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Anthony Todd — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:14:57 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231377#231377"]I'm with Bob![/quote]

Nothing on here yet about the horrendous killing of unwanted racehorses ?

Still, I suppose no law has been broken, and all the forms were filled in correctly so "nothing to see here, please move on "!

RE: Whatis this terrible news about Dr Sue Dyson??

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 21 Jul 2021 10:08:31 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29925/whatis-this-terrible-news-about-dr-sue-dyson/231375#231375"]Deception, fraud and false certification are pretty well at the top of the serious list. I am stunned that you don't accept this.[/quote]

I'm with Bob!