£1000 per condition insurance

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Charlotte Marshall — Sun, 22 Aug 2021 21:14:14 GMT

Exactly, my point was not really about what things cost but that people are taking out insurance believing they have a certain amount of cover and it is not clearly explained enough what they are getting. I have even had a client ring the company specifically to check his level of cover and still coming away not realising until I explained and suggested he ring them again.

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

helen herinckx — Mon, 02 Aug 2021 13:34:05 GMT

I think it’s ( not) cleverly presented to clients! I’ve come across this often and IMO it’s very misleading. Someone needs to challenge the companies involved but I expect their response with be ‘read TACs carefully’

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 01 Aug 2021 18:28:37 GMT

It has happened - a vet was struck off for butchering Cavaliers when he shortened their soft palates. Can't remember the details but it was appalling, perhaps about 10 years ago?

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Clive Ansell — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:19:29 GMT

[quote userid="18277" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231627#231627"]

1.2 Veterinary surgeons must keep within their own area of competence and refer cases responsibly.

Therefore advocating people operate outside of their competence is probably not a good idea. However as I said - just because its not your comfort zone to pin a cats leg, if you've seen it done and feel clinically and surgically competent that is a different thing entirely - hence the point I made.

[/quote]

Doesn't really change how we do things though.

If I am presented with cat with a fractured limb, I will, and feel obligated too, put forward all options, with costs, to the client; referral (different levels of expertise too; specialist centre, local certificate holder etc), repair myself or in house, amputate, PTS. Client ultimately makes the call.

I'm usually happy to tackle something I haven't done in ages, or never done, but it would always be assuming that referral has been advised/offered, and discussed on that basis and with fully informed signed consent.

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Anthony Todd — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:44:31 GMT

[quote userid="18277" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231627#231627"]when first opinion charging often rival some referrals these days! [/quote]

I vowed never to post again 'cos anything I disagree with, or comment on. is "turboing" and therefore dismissed, unless it in line with current dogma and/or practice.

I have never seen any biil analysis, let alone a comparison, ie where the money goes in vets' bills.

As I have always said, and will be turboed again, I wonder how much is on "tests", and more particularly, how many tests actually give helpful [in the curative/diagnostic/treatment sense] information.

My struggle to ascertain "hit rates" has been ignored.

Having been to a dentist recently they tend to "do" things and itemise these [for similar "high" fees!!] as opposed to random "looking" for things which often seem to reveal NAD??

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Nick Jackson — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:33:27 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231626#231626"]Cite a disciplinary case where this has occurred in recent memory that has resulted in a suspension. I've never read one, where the RCVS struck off a vet for pinning a cats femur, removing a mass, removing a foreign body, because this is what this statement is inferring.[/quote]

Sorry you are almost certainly correct, this hasnt happened and I cant really think it would. However the below is copied from the first section of the code of professional conduct:

1. Veterinary surgeons and animals

1.1 Veterinary surgeons must make animal health and welfare their first consideration when attending to animals.

1.2 Veterinary surgeons must keep within their own area of competence and refer cases responsibly.

Particularly when referral for whatever reason is not an option.

Might also be useful to point out that many junior members of the profession have very little say in how this would be charged regardless of their confidence in the procedure which is equally a problem... when first opinion charging often rival some referrals these days!

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:21:45 GMT

[quote userid="18277" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231624#231624"]Exceeding ones competence without support/instruction/guidance is a sure fire way of breaching the code of conduct.[/quote]

Cite a disciplinary case where this has occurred in recent memory that has resulted in a suspension. I've never read one, where the RCVS struck off a vet for pinning a cats femur, removing a mass, removing a foreign body, because this is what this statement is inferring.

The other pitfall is litigation, but this is covered by the VDS etc and as long as you don't do anything outrageous and do as your piers do, you will be OK.

This goes directly to 'deskilling' something that was discussed a few months ago

Neil

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Nick Jackson — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 14:04:55 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231622#231622"]one should not go outside one's comfort zone or outside one's area of competence. [/quote]

I think the confusion between these two terms is a big part of the problem you highlight.

Not exceeding ones comfort zone leaves you stationary professionally with little opportunity to progress.

Exceeding ones competence without support/instruction/guidance is a sure fire way of breaching the code of conduct.

There is a huge gulf between these two which I would agree a significant of younger grads fear to tread.

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Clive Ansell — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:46:47 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231612#231612"]What's wrong with a £1000 limit?[/quote]

Nowhere near high enough. Bills in standard first opinion practice now routinely exceed this.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231612#231612"]What it will do is create a market where vets can think about cost benefit and to 'have a go themselves' which can only increase clinical skills and career satisfaction. [/quote]

Would love too, but I've been berated before (Whatever happened to JGW?) as wrong for wanting to be a "have a go hero"

We even seem to be brainwashed these days into anything harder than a cat spey should be referred, and that one should not go outside one's comfort zone or outside one's area of competence.

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Clive Ansell — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:40:30 GMT

[quote userid="5726" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231620#231620"]I don’t see how we can reduce costs to clients (or why we should) and expect to increase pay to improve retention at the same time. [/quote]

I have never understood why anyone would want too; in the 25 years since qualifying, why some of this profession is hell bent on providing as cheaper a service as possible is beyond belief.

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

KMurphy — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 13:34:09 GMT

There’s a parallel thread just now about a crisis in the profession due to a shortage of vets. I don’t see how we can reduce costs to clients (or why we should) and expect to increase pay to improve retention at the same time.
The money needs to come from somewhere.

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:04:00 GMT

Playing Devil's Advocate here but there is an underlying point

What's wrong with a £1000 limit? If the monthly policy amount reflects that as it should then for many insurance becomes more affordable

What it will do is create a market where vets can think about cost benefit and to 'have a go themselves' which can only increase clinical skills and career satisfaction.

So rather than refer that cat with a broken leg to a specialist, you do it yourself for under £1000 and everyone ultimately wins

We have been driven for many years by those Pet Plan posters of 'Ginger was rushed to the vets for a foreign body that cost £3500', maybe a reset is in order?

Neil

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Clive Ansell — Thu, 29 Jul 2021 07:16:42 GMT

About 20 minutes

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Nicola Cole — Wed, 28 Jul 2021 23:47:20 GMT

Out of curiosity, how long were you in the scanner for?

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Derek Lyon — Wed, 28 Jul 2021 14:28:34 GMT

I self insure our 2 dogs

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Clive Ansell — Wed, 28 Jul 2021 13:27:41 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231547#231547"]General anaesthesia. No VAT on human healthcare, but is on vet - so that's already £360 inc vat..... etc[/quote]

I get that entirely, but there is one hell of a difference between my recent £300 MRI scan and the last case I referred for one at just short of £2500. Admittedly that £2500 (£2083.33 ex VAT) includes a referral consultation, anaesthesia and VAT.

Seems like big bucks to me

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 28 Jul 2021 10:57:04 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231490#231490"]Can't help but wonder why it is many times more expensive for animals? [/quote]

General anaesthesia. No VAT on human healthcare, but is on vet - so that's already £360 inc vat..... etc

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

bob lehner — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:01:01 GMT

As I've said before - I suspect human MRI/CT units have a far higher daily case load and so the fees needed to cover capital/running costs/profit can be lower per individual scan. Also I'd guess that the big private human health care companies like BUPA/Nuffield etc can negotiate far better prices for installation and maintenance of these items.

The more hi-tech vet referral centres there are competing to offer this type of imaging to a fairly fixed (and possibly reducing) pool of patients the lower the daily through-put per scanner and consequently fees will need to rise - thus reducing even further the pool of patients with the capacity to pay....

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Clive Ansell — Mon, 26 Jul 2021 12:31:05 GMT

[quote userid="6407" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/231435#231435"]And said insurance policies then have a limitation of £1-1.5k for advanced imaging.[/quote]

Excluding the cost of anaesthesia or sedation, what does advanced imaging actually cost? . Do the insurance company limitations include the anaesthesia?

I've recently had an MRI scan on L spine and pelvis for just under £300.

Can't help but wonder why it is many times more expensive for animals?

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

nick shackleton — Thu, 22 Jul 2021 22:20:42 GMT

We have had several clients recently who have a decent amount of insurance per condition per condition. Say around £6-7k. I work for an ortho and neuro referral centre so we use advanced imaging a lot of the time. And said insurance policies then have a limitation of £1-1.5k for advanced imaging. I think it’s awful that clients are getting caught out and also shame on insurance companies to dictate what we as professionals can spend said pot of money on

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 22 Jul 2021 16:16:08 GMT

I've seen policies with a max claim limit of £500, only covering injury and not illness, not covering CT or MRI, only xrays. There's some absdolute bobbins out there

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Beats — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 20:50:29 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance/230990#230990"]I think this is a lot of the problem, and an element not talked about enough.[/quote]

Veterinary is a marvelous, textbook example of increased competition leading to increased prices.

Prices were much lower when a smaller number of practices had local monopolies.

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Dinu Catilina — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 20:50:18 GMT

[quote userid="4747" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance"]They think they have e.g. £6000 cover for the year on what is described as a premium policy only to discover that the maximum per condition is only £1000 which does not go very far nowadays![/quote]

For me, there are two important matters to discuss here.

1. Some insurance policies are sold by people who are more or less the equivalent of loan sharks praying on the naive and uninformed.

2. Vet prices are spiralling up at a rate much much faster than inflation and salaries. I don't say vets are greedy or dishonest but I think we are a very inefficient industry that risks transforming pet ownership in a luxury while dogs and cats were the apanage of the poor from immemorial times.

RE: £1000 per condition insurance

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 27 Jun 2021 19:54:23 GMT

[quote userid="4747" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29906/1000-per-condition-insurance"]the maximum per condition is only £1000 which does not go very far nowadays![/quote]

I think this is a lot of the problem, and an element not talked about enough.