VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 12 May 2021 09:37:38 GMT

[quote userid="11392" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230356#230356"]Thank you for organising the webinar and all the work sorting the recording.[/quote]

Sue Knighton Thank you for the thank you! Appreciated.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Sue Knighton — Tue, 11 May 2021 23:13:21 GMT

Please do you, or anyone else on this thread, know anywhere that can supply a template contract suitable for a sole trader vet locum?

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Sue Knighton — Tue, 11 May 2021 23:06:53 GMT

Thank you for organising the webinar and all the work sorting the recording.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 09 May 2021 17:19:31 GMT

[quote userid="6897" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230289#230289"]Congrats to Arlo on setting it up[/quote]

Thanks Bob! The challenge now is to do another and do it better! More on that in another thread.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

bob lehner — Sun, 09 May 2021 16:32:03 GMT

I watched the recording out of interest - tho' the issues are not of immediate concern to me personally these days.

Congrats to Arlo on setting it up - I would have found it really useful if I were still in the locum business.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Yantha Smyth — Sun, 09 May 2021 14:27:39 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230265#230265"]However, I don't think it would have been possible to solve things like variable understanding, conflicts and status determination in a meeting of that sort, because doing so requires the participation of other parties, like the corps or HMRC itself. [/quote]

Yes agreed, I think my expectations were a tad unrealistic! It would be very useful at some point to have a legal bod and HMRC bod to give a similar presentation and explanation around the key areas of confusion, like control and financial risk. And also the other criteria to consider (?checklist) when the CEST is unable to give a result.

There were definitely some useful things raised and I am going to re-watch it since I think I will pick up more from it second time round when I am not faffing around trying to unmute myself for a silly amount of time!

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 08 May 2021 09:26:33 GMT

[quote userid="5083" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230236#230236"]I feel it was a useful overview, with some helpful pointers, but also feel that the nitty gritty issues of conflicts/variable understanding and queries about carrying out the status determination, by either party, are still outstanding.[/quote]

Yantha Smyth - been meaning to reply all week, but been so busy making movies, I haven't had a second!

It was a really interesting exercise for me, that zoom meeting. There were some technical issues I learned from, and looking back over it, my idea to have four people having mini discussions failed dismally. Didn't add anything over calling people out individually, and in fact it meant I was sitting there faffing around trying to find the people in the list. And I also found myself dealing with enquiries whilst it was all going on, and that too made it harder to steer the debate.

Oh, and about half way through the zoom meeting, I touched my face ... thought 'er, that feels damp', looked up and realised to my horror that I'd cut myself and there was blood all over my face!

Anyway, I think I can make the next one much more polished, fluid etc. And those limitations aside, I thought there were some good points made and some useful stuff shared.

However, I don't think it would have been possible to solve things like variable understanding, conflicts and status determination in a meeting of that sort, because doing so requires the participation of other parties, like the corps or HMRC itself.

The things that I thought were helpful are:

a) Keep calm and carry on. If it quacks like a duck, if it flaps like a duck, it probably is a duck. My own feeling is that for those that are clearly working random hours at different locations, and who have the ability to turn down work, and who are at financial risk (which the pandemic demonstrated that almost 100% of locums are), you'll be fine, but it might be prudent to document things in such a way that you can easily refer to them if challenged (ie keep a digital file of correspondence in which either side cancels work).

b) Status determination - what everyone wants is a clear ruling from HMRC, and that's the one thing you are not going to get until someone gets taken to court. In the meantime, I floated the idea of a checklist of things (tying in with a) above), and whilst that wouldn't offer any absolute guarantee, it would hopefully give people greater confidence, and mean they are better prepared in case of challenge from HMRC. This also ties in with your point about CEST not being up to the job (actually, quite a lot WAS said about other criteria for being outside IR35)

c) I suspect market forces will ultimately decide whether corporates will stick with a requirement that locums are inside IR35, and deal with the problem of conflicts.

[quote userid="5083" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230236#230236"]ST and Ltd would argue they have control since they decide where and when they work by selecting by choice certain engagements or accepting/declining particular ad hoc shifts at various locations. The med-large business would argue that they control where since the work must be carried out within the practice and when due to their shift patterns and opening hours... both are valid but who has the control according to HMRC?[/quote]

I'll check this with Simon, but I would have thought the ST / Ltd has precedence. Because although the contract is to work at a location and time, it is the ST / Ltd which makes the decision as to whether or not to take the contract.

All in all, sure, the meeting didn't solve the problems, but I hope it was a good start, and there was some useful stuff discussed, some of which can be taken further.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Anthony Todd — Fri, 07 May 2021 14:24:09 GMT

As far as I know there is a save/record button on the program which, I assume, is accessible whenever??

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

hcrobinson — Fri, 07 May 2021 10:53:55 GMT

Great, thanks for all your work

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 May 2021 07:45:53 GMT

hcrobinson Hi, yes, indeed there is. Took all day to edit out my own waffle, encode and upload to youtube and finally finished at about 3:00am last night! You can watch it here on VetSurgeon.org, where, when you are logged in, there is a 'Claim CPD' button above it, if you want a certificate for the time spent watching: https://www.vetsurgeon.org/001/nonclinical/m/meetings/138080

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

hcrobinson — Thu, 06 May 2021 21:24:37 GMT

is there a recording of the webinar?

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 06 May 2021 12:37:55 GMT

[quote userid="5083" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230236#230236"] The med-large business would argue that they control where since the work must be carried out within the practice and when due to their shift patterns and opening hours... both are valid but who has the control according to HMRC?[/quote]

I think the 'control', or final say, would be held by the person/organisation actually taking the financial risk? Hence the recent changes. The rules haven't changed, simply the liability. It's difficult for a locum to argue their case when, in the end, they won't be any worse off if HMRC disagrees.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Yantha Smyth — Thu, 06 May 2021 10:26:05 GMT

Following on from the Zoom meeting last evening-

I feel it was a useful overview, with some helpful pointers, but also feel that the nitty gritty issues of conflicts/variable understanding and queries about carrying out the status determination, by either party, are still outstanding.

I suspect that without further clarity and guidance on application to the veterinary locum arena, that corporates bearing the risk of accurate determinations (those that even consider doing this rather than excluding ltd/ST fullstop), are unlikely to be confident enough in an outside result except in rare black-white scenarios. Also Ltds, me included, ideally want to be confident in the results for determinations they make for work with small businesses. I think that is the crux of the matter, and that unfortunately the CEST has very limited application to vet locum work to generate a robust result on its own...not really fit for purpose...more suited to trades/construction/IT if anything.

The question I posed during the Zoom did not really get an answer- namely, what other criteria (and guidelines for those criteria) can be used to make the determination and be confident of the result when the HMRC CEST tool gives an "unable to make a determination" result?

examples like working pattern, duration etc...what else? BUT note that HMRC mention in one part of their IR35 spiel that for longer roles that are deemed outside, that regular reviews of status should be carried out...at least yearly... implying it would still be potentially possible some engagements to be outside even if they are prolonged... aargh!!

This is the most common scenario as "unable..." will be the result if all other aspects of the CEST are in line with 'outside', but no credible substitution exists (unrealistic in many cases) and hmrc’s version of financial questions are answered according to their interpretation (ie not including all the costs we consider to be an indicator of financial independence eg VDS, dosimetry, CPD all of which are borne by the Ltd but are not specific exclusively to a single engagement).

The other main area there seems to be disparity from either side is the when, where of "control", not so much 'how' since 'highly skilled work, professional judgement' keeps that clear.

ST and Ltd would argue they have control since they decide where and when they work by selecting by choice certain engagements or accepting/declining particular ad hoc shifts at various locations. The med-large business would argue that they control where since the work must be carried out within the practice and when due to their shift patterns and opening hours... both are valid but who has the control according to HMRC?

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Modou Camara — Wed, 05 May 2021 21:08:37 GMT

Hello all,

A comment I wanted to make during the zoom call at the last segment, however, there was insufficient time.

I would advice that you speak to your accountants about "Employer Intermediaries" (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/employment-status-employment-intermediaries#who-is-an-employment-intermediary)

I proposed this model to both IVC and CVS (corporates I normally do locum work for), did the paperwork, to which IVC declined but CVS approved.

This means that my accountant's firm acts as an employment intermediary (aka my employer) between the clinic and myself. Therefore I am able to reclaim travel expenses and other qualifying expenses before PAYE and NI deductions.

I simply decided to no do any locum work for IVC (I am already employed with them for my permanent role, why locum with them for further financial losses?)

All the best!

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:55:06 GMT

Francisco - Arlo posted this a couple of replies before:

'Timing - I am thinking 8:00pm, wednesday after next'.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:49:10 GMT

Difficult to give you an exact time or date with the full time job, the podcast, the baby and a very small support network. I will see others preferences and will attend if I can. Evenings after 7:30 are likely to be best.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 19:44:35 GMT

Arlo Guthrie

Looking at a comment made to me on another thread about paying 40% deductions on gross income, I think there is a lack of understanding about the allowances that come into force before income tax, and especially NI, are paid. In theory there is 20% income tax, then 13.8% employers and 12% employee NI, and I think some people are simply totalling this up and thinking they'll pay 45% on their gross income - which is never the case. There are allowances and boundaries that don't seem well understood. It may be worth checking the 'tax guy' will cover this?

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

scarlet — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:52:11 GMT

Hi Arlo,

If you cant get an hmrc , What about a tax lawyer rather than an accountant?

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Sarah Keir — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:49:01 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230037#230037"]isn't an accountant by definition a tax specialist[/quote]

Simple answer is no, based on experience. IR35 is a specialist sub area and my husband's experience of some accountants is they claim they service contractors and know IR35 but they don't. And my husband is in a clearer area than vet.

8pm in week is perfect

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:37:59 GMT

[quote userid="2276" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230018#230018"]Hi Arlo![/quote]

Hi Jon!

[quote userid="2276" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230018#230018"]I would like someone who has the knowledge of the various options now available, with their respective pros and cons: especially some advice on zero hours contracts.[/quote][quote userid="2276" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230020#230020"]whether a locum vet providing their own indemnity insurance, kit (stethescopes, scrubs etc), choosing which Veterinary Clinics they want to do a locum stint at, and when they want to work truly falls into IR35?[/quote]

The partner at Moore Scarrott seemed very well-informed to me on these questions and the others raised in this thread.

Sarah Keir

[quote userid="9515" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230034#230034"]I would like to join this and second what Yantha says. We need a tax specialist, not an accountant who is trying to get more clients[/quote]

Er, am I being thick, but isn't an accountant by definition a tax specialist?! My thinking at this stage is that veterinary accountants are best placed to advise, because they know the profession. But I am thinking that it would be good if I can find an ex HMRC person too, who can join in. I am on the hunt for one

Timing - I am thinking 8:00pm, wednesday after next.

Draft Agenda:

IR35 rule changes and their implications for locums
Criteria for vet locums to work as sole traders
For those who can't
- How to use CEST / Shield
- Alternatives to IR35:
  - Umbrella Companies (double taxation issue)
  - Zero-hr bank contracts (avoiding dodgy clauses.

How does that agenda sound to everyone? Anything else to add?

[quote userid="24354" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29784/vetsurgeon-zoom-ir35-locums-and-umbrella-companies/230016#230016"]Someone representing us as RVN's?[/quote]

Lisa Ferraioli - I am assuming (rightly or wrongly) that the issues facing vet nurse locums are more or less identical to those facing vets and will be inviting members of VetNurse to join too.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Sarah Keir — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:11:09 GMT

I would like to join this and second what Yantha says. We need a tax specialist, not an accountant who is trying to get more clients and not someone invested in the system. If you open this up to all locums (through FB pages etc) then you could get a good number on this.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Jonathan Kirby — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 15:03:49 GMT

I had the same experience: I was happy as a sole trader and was sure I complied with HMRC rules but had to change (I was offered either using an umbrella company or having a zero hours contract) to work for corporates.

I plan to increase my charges to make up some of the shortfall from using an umbrella company.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Jonathan Kirby — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 10:13:53 GMT

Something I'd like some clarity on is whether a locum vet providing their own indemnity insurance, kit (stethescopes, scrubs etc), choosing which Veterinary Clinics they want to do a locum stint at, and when they want to work truly falls into IR35?

I suspect that many locums don't really fall under the auspices of IR35 and could work as sole traders. However, I know that the corporates won't entertain this.

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Jonathan Kirby — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 10:03:48 GMT

Hi Arlo!

I've been working as a locum for the past 14 years. Until this year, I worked as sole trader (justified by providing my own indemnity insurance, my own kit - stethescopes, scrubs etc, and choosing which Surgeries I worked for and when). This year, I signed up to an umbrella company. Obviously, the fees I now have to pay to the umbrella company £2,000/year), the apprentice levy etc have meant a substantial drop in my net income.

Best time for webinar would be 8 pm, with recording available - if possible.

I would like someone who has the knowledge of the various options now available, with their respective pros and cons: especially some advice on zero hours contracts.

Thanks

Jon

RE: VetSurgeon Zoom: IR35, locums and umbrella companies

Graham Duncanson — Thu, 22 Apr 2021 09:05:49 GMT

I’m available virtually anytime