Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 02 May 2021 17:54:04 GMT

I work for a very large practice ( 25 years now ) and for most of that we did our turn at night duty, it was always more busy than a smaller practice would be but as we had many vets, the overall OOH rota seemed fine to me for many years

BUT

As time went by the amount of OOH call out increased consistently

Then we started seeing OOH for other practices, with a carrot being dangled that when we got busy enough we would get a dedicated OOH service - this did happen eventually , but not without a lot of kicking and screaming and the loss of some good staff members who felt somewhat put upon - must have been snowflakes ( not so LOL)

I got older - and the duty shifts morphed from being on-call to working a night shift - and being damn busy doing it - I did one of these shifts during the quiet part of the first lockdown, when clients were actually afraid of dying if they went out - and it was just doable. We are now far far busier and there is NO way I could do one now - my metabolism can't take it for a start - our OOH vets are hassled all night by owners mostly worried about things =that are either not remotely critical , or that have been ignored to the point that they now are critical indeed

I have NEVER resented being called out for a genuine emergency but these days bitterly resent being hassled OOH by clients with imaginitis, especially when I have to work the next day. As a profession we have allowed clients to dictate to us what we should / would see -perhaps aided by a boss's desire to have the OOH income , and always with the feeling that the RCVS / ghost of Chikosi is hanging over us - so I quite understand why other vets won't take jobs that include OOH cover. I can certainly see that neighbouring practices that send their OOH to us seem to have an easier job finding new recruits but that may be a more complicated issue entirely

What will happen if your practice has contracted OOH cover to a company that fails - because then the responsibility reverts to the primary practice - I do not know - currently the shortage of warm bodies to take up vacancies seems a problem that can not be resolved - and I feel that either the system will collapse, or the RCVS must remove the requirement for 24/7 and make it more an aspiration / ideal than an absolute requirement. No other country has this expectation applied to vets by their own regulator.

After all, we are no longer supposed to be able/ competent to calve a cow, treat a colic, pin a leg and manage a GDV just because we are all vets ....

The world has moved on, and expectations on us are far different to even 25 years ago let alone in Herriot's day

I also see a crisis developing in the OV needs for animal and animal product exports that have emerged since Brexit and in the short term I think that is far more likely to show the profession in a bad light as there aren't enough to do the job and the job itself seems ghastly, especially if you are expected to do it alongside clinical work.

This job that we do seems to become ever more toxic, and every part of it takes such a toll. I'm lucky in many ways - when I finish my shifts, I can walk away knowing that excellent colleagues have got my back, and are looking after my patients I don't have to do it all by myself - but I still have to fight off the feelings of anxiety, depression, burn out and, more worryingly, loss of the sense of vocation that has sustained me since vet school

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Camilla Edwards — Tue, 27 Apr 2021 09:01:33 GMT

I agree.

I graduated in Denmark and feel an example of one of my friends set up is great and could work here (it is fairly typical for Denmark).

My friend has 3 children and wanted to set up her own small practice. There is no obligation for 24 hour care in Denmark but a lot of practices do it because it pleases the clients (the psychology of being told versus providing an extra service is enormous). She did not want to provide out of hours care and wanted to work the hours she was available.

She converted an outbuilding and initially was consult only. Any surgeries she referred to local practices - not for any fee, just for the work. She was able to tailor her referrals for the clients needs - specialist versus first opinion, bells and whistles versus no frills. As her practice has slowly grown she has been able to buy equipment and initially started with adding dentals to her list. She works the hours she works, has trained her clients and they know that a phone call outside those times will most likely be diverted via her to another clinic, unless she happens to be free at that particular time in which case - she'll see it her self.

I do think the issue with this is that there are areas which the RCVS covers which have huge land areas, and if there is no vet available this could be bad for animal welfare. However, I think for the majority of the country a system whereby the market works out the 24 hour cover rather than the obligation would be better for clients, animals and vets and nurses.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Martin Hamilton — Sat, 17 Apr 2021 21:39:27 GMT

[quote userid="3585" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229931#229931"]One thing that I have noticed where I am currently working is an increasing trend towards referral of true emergency cases from GP practices to dedicated specialist and emergency practices. Often the type of emergency cases that are fairly straight forward and not really in need of specialist referral. This is happening not just at night and weekends from those GP practices handling their own out of hours, but also during normal business hours. So it is now pretty much financially justifiable to run a dedicated emergency clinic 24/7 and not just OOH, in many places, and certainly where I am currently working.[/quote]

This is true here in Canada as well. Unless you live >2 hours from an urban centre then you are unlikely to have a practice offering their own out of hours. Our city has two specialty hospitals which both run a 24/7 emergency service seeing both true emergencies and urgent care. As far as I am aware our emergency service is run at very low profit margins/at cost and relies on the specialty departments and the transfers to those departments from ER to generate profit for the business (note we are not a corporate). There are 3 vets on staff at all times meaning that there is support and still adequate staff present should someone call in sick. Vets work 6, 12hr shifts every fortnight, with one week off every 8 weeks and are paid better than a general practitioner. No shortage of vets willing to work those shifts, though there is a shortage in Ontario as a whole, particularly in general practice.

Clients have been traveling such distances for >30 years and as such it is the norm. Prices are of course higher but again this has been the norm for several decades and clients expect that.

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229901#229901"]She told me that there were literally a handful of British vet students, with a lot of Americans, who had no intention of staying in the UK after graduation. Also lots of students who wanted a vet degree but had no intention of working as vets. I get it, Scottish students don't pay fees, but the universities need money, and foreign students pay well. Thing is, this has a real knock on in terms of vets coming into practice.[/quote]

With regards to the number of foreign students, I witnessed this as well whilst at Edinburgh. The counter argument I would add is that many of my North American colleagues would have liked to stay in the UK for work, however due to the visa system they were unable to stay (I don't know specifics, but supposedly the government required a salary higher than something like £35,000 and as new graduates nobody could get close to that in 2016). The debt they undertook to get their degree could also never be paid off on a UK salary (tuition for international students is in the realm of £32,800/annum) unless the bank of mum and dad was paying it.

Students attending the AVMA accredited vet schools (British students or otherwise) have a much larger pool of job offerings to search through and quite honestly the British veterinary industry is the least appealing due to salary, work hours and the good old out of hours provisions that we are discussing here. We have 7 British Glasgow and Edinbrugh grads working in our hospital, 4 of which work in the emergency deparment and 3 in various stages of specialisation, and all of whom graduated in the past 5 years. And this is just one practice in a relatively insignificant city in Canada.

Of course, this is just anecdotal, but of my 6 close, British vet friends from university only 2 are still in the UK, one of which is now a banker.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Anthony Todd — Fri, 16 Apr 2021 15:44:14 GMT

[quote userid="6765" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229892#229892"]have sufficient numbers that our vets do just one or occasionally 2 nights a week and a standard 4 day week. We are open 7 days. We also somehow manage to laugh a lot during the day - so important.[/quote]

Just think how fewer nights your vets would do if you combined with just one, or more, practices in your area, to me it's a no-brainer and so easy and obvious!

PS I wonder really, if the difference between vet "services" ie the whole consult etc. between vets is much greater than the difference between vets in the same practice??

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Glen McIntosh — Fri, 16 Apr 2021 04:19:55 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229915#229915"]Apart from critical care, which is the preserve of referral centres, what part of emergency medicine or surgery is different to daytime practice? None. Literally none. If you pick up an ECC textbook it is just full of more urgent presentations of common (or uncommon) problems.[/quote]

As a vet who has been working exclusively in this feild for nigh on 15 years now, I agree with you entirely. I think a better name for what I do, at least, is one that is used quite commonly in human medicine especially in the US - "urgent care". This best describes most of the types of cases we see, which are often not genuine emergencies as viewed by practicing veterinarians, but are often dire emergencies in the eyes of some owners. The main difference between urgent care centres in human medicine and what I currently do is that when we are presented with true life threatening emergencies we need to deal with them ourselves, whereas in a human urgent care clinic, those types of cases would be sent by ambulance to a tertiary hospital for treatment.

And yes, I agree, critical care is often, but not exclusively, the preserve of referral practices. Not only just because for it to be done well specialist level residency training is pretty much essential (like any speciality its probably not possible for most people to get really good at it just by reading a textbook and seeing a few cases now and then), but also because it is very time consuming and expensive. But many of the principles and techniques that these guys are using are of course applicable to any veterinary practice dealing with very sick patients - which is, of course, all of them.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229925#229925"]There are very very few emergencies seen OOH, probably less than during the day[/quote]

Not sure I agree with this though. Certainly in my current situation, and even back when I was working OOH in the UK, I am/was seeing a lot more true emergency presentations than I ever saw working in GP practice. I think, though, that in UK charity practices such as where you work, you are also seeing a higher caseload of these types of cases on a regular basis when compared to a regular GP practice. That is not to say that emergencies don't present to GP practices, they certainly do, but at a much lower frequency than would be seen at any veteriary OOH clinic with a decent catchment. It is simple mathematics really, if the OOH practice staffed by, say 1 vet - for simplicity - for 12 hours at night, (not counting weekend and public holiday days) and they are providing care for the patients of 20 - 40 FTVE's for at least 1/2 of total hours in any given week, then that vet working in the OOH clinic should be seeing around 10 - 20 times the number of true emergencies that any one individual vet of the 20 - 40 FTVE would see, on average. To be even fairer, lets assume that true emergencies are twice as likely to present during the day than at night, the OOH vet is still seeing 5 - 10 times as many of these type of cases as any single individual vet out of the 20 - 40 FTVE's being covered by the out of hours practice. But you might want to check my math...

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229915#229915"]If I had done purely OOH work I wouldn't be anywhere near the surgeon I am now - in fact doing one pure OOH job a few years ago, I left after a few months due to boredom and skill depreciation.[/quote]

My experience has been quite the opposite in many ways. As you have said above, OOH work is exactly the same as you would be doing in the daytime as a GP. I agree, except I would say it is distilled and concentrated GP work without vaccinations, dentals, skin (although this area not completely) and elective surgeries. So for sure I have become deskilled in those areas. And I certainly don't claim to be a particularly great surgeon, but I get by for the types of cases I need to deal with. In other areas I have had the opprtunity to learn a lot. And yes, like any area of work after a while it is pretty much the same thing day in day out, but I wouldn't say that I am particularly bored, and I get the feeling that I might be bored if I went back to GP practice, but I am probably wrong about that. And there is always netflix on quiet nights.

[quote userid="24356" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229918#229918"] and helped that the cases were mine and not getting sent back to another vet who could ‘judge’ my decisions and work.[/quote]

To be honest, Elizabeth, if you are getting the feeling that you are somehow being judged by your OOH provider then you need to let them know that, because that really isnt cricket.

But it is also important to be aware of the OOH's vets perspective. Unfortunately any vet who has worked OOH for any length of time will have been burnt when they have taken over a case from one of the referring practices and where workup and/or diagnosis has ultimately been found to be wanting, but hasn't reviewed the case themselves and simply accepted the findings and treatment of the referring vet and the patient has subsequently deteriorated or even died overnight. The OOH vet will be held responsible, quite correctly, in this sort of situation. So pretty much any case transferred to an OOH service for overnight care should be reviewed from first principles. The vast majority of the time the OOH vet wil be in agreement and follow the day vets treatment plan to the letter. Occasionaly, though, things might get picked up that have been missed and adjustments to the treatment plan need to be made. Hopefully these new findings and changes to treatment plans are being communicated tactfully to the owner such that the relationship with their regular vet remains a good one.

This sort of thing really shouldn't be viewed as being judged.

Indeed, every single case that an OOH vet sees and gets transferred back to thier regular vet in the daytime for ongoing treatment will be (or should be) dealt with in the same way, but quite often much less sympathetically. It is something that really should be welcomed, because none of us gets it right all the time. But it can certainly be uncomfortable at times.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229925#229925"]I think most people of a certain vintage on here now look back and see the value in those years. [/quote]

Yeah, I think thats fair.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229925#229925"]I have always looked for jobs with in-house OOH (even if I no longer work OOH shifts) because the 360 feedback of seeing how cases develop - what you did well, what could be improved - and learning to cope sometimes completely by yourself was very useful. But those days are gone really.[/quote]

Nah, these days I definately woudn't want a job where I was working days and had to do on call OOH as well.

One thing that I have noticed where I am currently working is an increasing trend towards referral of true emergency cases from GP practices to dedicated specialist and emergency practices. Often the type of emergency cases that are fairly straight forward and not really in need of specialist referral. This is happening not just at night and weekends from those GP practices handling their own out of hours, but also during normal business hours. So it is now pretty much financially justifiable to run a dedicated emergency clinic 24/7 and not just OOH, in many places, and certainly where I am currently working.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

David Mills — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 16:04:28 GMT

[quote userid="24356" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229918#229918"]daytime vets need to feel confident doing emergency work[/quote]

Yes, but OOH has changed. There are very very few emergencies seen OOH, probably less than during the day, and the triage aspect has all but been removed in many places. So the previous advantages of making decisions and judgement calls have been lost. I agree being sole charge can help decision making, but these are rarely followed up/through (as opposed to in-house OOH), and most things - other than the smack you in the face GDV or C-sec - are rightly put off until the next day.

[quote userid="24356" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229918#229918"]I should add -I did oohs as part of my various mixed jobs earlier in my career, but it certainly wasn’t high volume and helped that the cases were mine and not getting sent back to another vet who could ‘judge’ my decisions and work.[/quote]

Yes, myself also, and I think most people of a certain vintage on here now look back and see the value in those years. I have always looked for jobs with in-house OOH (even if I no longer work OOH shifts) because the 360 feedback of seeing how cases develop - what you did well, what could be improved - and learning to cope sometimes completely by yourself was very useful. But those days are gone really.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 15:12:05 GMT

All the replies don't seem to be based on any evidence, just a fear of what might happen. Criticism of another vet has an awful habit of boomeranging back on the critic!

I know some will claim exception, but most of us have been there and made that mistake sometime!

Sympathy, rather than criticism [and taking clients word as a sort of fantastic fabrication] pays dividends tomorrow and another night off is so forgiving and sympathetic.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Elizabeth — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 14:39:19 GMT

David - my reasoning is that daytime vets need to feel confident doing emergency work, and may not offer to fill shifts because of what they’re going to see. Maybe a few shifts of relatively normal stuff with the odd Caesar/ GDV may be all it takes to get More vets keen to do it.
( I should add -I did oohs as part of my various mixed jobs earlier in my career, but it certainly wasn’t high volume and helped that the cases were mine and not getting sent back to another vet who could ‘judge’ my decisions and work. )

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:48:52 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229913#229913"]We do OOH for a few local practices. It does not go both ways. We have provided them with vets when they are short staffed, in return they will fob clients off to us even early in the day for routine things because 'they are too busy and can't cope', while we just have to roll up our sleeves and work harder. They will then often complain about the treatment we gave despite the fact they refused to see them in the first place. [/quote]

Gee, I didn't realise things between practices had got so bad, I wonder why it has happened? Surely corporates can't be blamed for this as well?

I think once we started sharing nights etc inter-practice relationships improved to everyone's benefit. You won't know 'til you try though.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

David Mills — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:38:06 GMT

[quote userid="24356" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229896#229896"]I think Vets Now etc should look at heavily subsidised ECC training and offer opportunities to day vets to spend time at the clinics alongside regular ECC staff.[/quote]

Disagree. One of the major errors of the profession (or possibly certain parts) was the introduction of this term "ECC". Apart from critical care, which is the preserve of referral centres, what part of emergency medicine or surgery is different to daytime practice? None. Literally none. If you pick up an ECC textbook it is just full of more urgent presentations of common (or uncommon) problems.

The question begs whether even "ECC vets" are even the best placed to teach emergency surgery, as most OOH shifts I have done in previous jobs there are a smattering of GDVs and bleeding traumas but other than that? Not much. If I had done purely OOH work I wouldn't be anywhere near the surgeon I am now - in fact doing one pure OOH job a few years ago, I left after a few months due to boredom and skill depreciation. I've lost count of the number of vets who have asked to see practice with us to make sure their skills don't depreciate.

It is partly that OOH is now being run for profit by a few different parties rather than being run as part of a service - there is nothing inherently wrong in that, but it shifts the dynamic hugely. So what is an "emergency" service isn't - anal glands, infected eyes, ears, female cat cystitis, animals vomiting once or twice, mildly limping animals make up a huge amount of time and if someone is willing to pay it is seen - compare that to when I was in an OOH rota and you did your best to not see things unless you had to.

So "ECC" as commonly used is a sham phrase, the correct terminology is normal vet practice outside of normal hours. Yes people are made to make decisions on their own, and that is helpful, but if you just see most things anyway where is the skill in that?

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 13:32:03 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229880#229880"]

Yes but here's an alternative?

Why doesn't someone, for starters, and for instance, just ring all those corporXXXarsXXXX around you and suggest what seems to me as very possibly a workable solution.

Divide all the vets in your area into the rota for each vet and a nurse at each facility and the advantages are obvious!

Instead of dividing nights by 2 or 4 you will be dividing them by many more

If you don't try, you'll never know! And clients will soon realise that "after hours" is just that, an emergency service for emergencies!

[/quote]

OOH work is different to when you did it, and it's not just 'emergencies'. Also, very difficult to encourage a vet who doesn't do OOH to start doing it again, or even if they want to, have the clinical skills and nause to be able to manage sole charge.

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229880#229880"]PS once practices start cooperating and communicating you may find other advantages eg day-time staff shortages etc.[/quote]

We do OOH for a few local practices. It does not go both ways. We have provided them with vets when they are short staffed, in return they will fob clients off to us even early in the day for routine things because 'they are too busy and can't cope', while we just have to roll up our sleeves and work harder. They will then often complain about the treatment we gave despite the fact they refused to see them in the first place.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 11:04:55 GMT

Has anyone any data on the loss of registered clients, permanently, after an "urgent?" visit to a night clinic?

How many night-clinic clients are new to any vet in the area??

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Jill Butterworth — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 10:05:18 GMT

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229901#229901"]However the new regulations around taking on a new graduate would put me off doing the same again, and so it gets harder and harder. [/quote]

That is a real worry and an unintended consequence.

The same thing happened to my ex husband who runs a garage: he used to take on an apprentice nearly every year, giving a young person a start and a way to earn a good living, but the red tape became onerous, so he hasn't done it for the last few years.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Julie Innes — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 09:30:39 GMT

I believe that one of the reasons we have so few vets is that we are training fewer domestic students, especially here in Scotland.

One of my vets came to me as a student, aged 15. Really keen, worked Saturdays for me for 2 years and came in school holidays. Straight A student, lots of relevant work experience (farms, rescue centre, worked with birds of prey), refused entry for both Glasgow and Edinburgh (its a given that Scottish students won't usually be accepted into English vet schools, although we still apply) She did get in, thankfully, through the clearing system. She told me that there were literally a handful of British vet students, with a lot of Americans, who had no intention of staying in the UK after graduation. Also lots of students who wanted a vet degree but had no intention of working as vets. I get it, Scottish students don't pay fees, but the universities need money, and foreign students pay well. Thing is, this has a real knock on in terms of vets coming into practice.

I took my vet on after graduation, 2 years ago. It has worked out well- after all, she has known us since she was 15 and is familiar with the practice. However the new regulations around taking on a new graduate would put me off doing the same again, and so it gets harder and harder.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Elizabeth — Thu, 15 Apr 2021 06:58:26 GMT

I think Vets Now etc should look at heavily subsidised ECC training and offer opportunities to day vets to spend time at the clinics alongside regular ECC staff. I suspect what puts off vets more than anything from ECC work is that will be expected to treat all sorts of emergencies that they rarely, if ever, see in practice, and be expected to treat them quickly and unsupported by other vets.
If those vets could be encouraged into the ECC centres with no expectations , no overall responsibility but just allow them to gain experience, they may then be more keen to either cover ECC shifts of work for them permanently.
And I know emergencies happen in the day as well, but our practice for example has had 2 GDVs that I’m aware of in the last 2 years. Neither progressed to surgery. Can’t remember the last Caesarian we had.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:52:37 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229893#229893"]How is this materially different to a dedicated OOH centre? [/quote]

I thought the problem was a chronic, severe, lack of staff, ie they can't get staff during the day, let alone to do nights?

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:48:34 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229883#229883"]one in 5 or one in 20.......[/quote]

How is this materially different to a dedicated OOH centre? Clients are more likely to be seeing an unknown vet than a known one. And staffing numbers and rotas would need to accommodate OOH provision, with the inevitable bickering that sorting out equitable rotas would bring. I'm not sure it would end up being less stressful than every practice just paying an amount of money to allow for the provision of a dedicated OOH practice...but, wait.... isn't that we've got?

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229883#229883"]And doing fewer f'ing nights on call will make a world of difference.[/quote]

Can't really do less than zero....

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Alistair Graham-Evans — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 21:42:04 GMT

The shortage of vets available for employment is chronic and getting worse - the whole system is about to implode.

Everyone seems to have realised too late in the day.

We now have no OOH, limited referral but some fantastic young vets who we must support and develop better - just need more hours in the day! I think we sometimes expect too much of ourselves- the wait time for treatment of animals is so much better than for us humans! Fortunately we now have sufficient numbers that our vets do just one or occasionally 2 nights a week and a standard 4 day week. We are open 7 days. We also somehow manage to laugh a lot during the day - so important.

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:28:49 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229882#229882"]There is another way and you can do this without owning a practice[/quote]

And doing fewer f'ing nights on call will make a world of difference.

one in 5 or one in 20.......

Sacrifice inter-practice rivalry for more nights off seems like something to consider!

Ask your corporate boss if he would mind taking the AH phone one night in, say 20 or ever??................

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 16:13:40 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229881#229881"]But many folk (myself included) don't want to wait till I retire to have the money, or more importantly the time, to enjoy life! To say nothing of the few (like my Dad) who didn't live long enough to retire.[/quote]

and so we diverge

1) I take seniors cycling, many have retired earlier, no regrets

2) My uncle was persuaded to work a few years longer for a higher pension. He died 2 years, getting fit for the world tour that he had spent his life looking forward to

3) Not one person in hospices when asked what they regretted said 'I wished I'd worked longer'

Practice has changed, get a pension, save your money, for many it's not all about accumulation of property and practices. I locummed for a vet that said 'I want to build a legacy'. It's now sold to IVC. Fact is and it's sad but true, no-one remembers when you leave a practice after 6 months, you may think you're irreplaceable, but as a farmer said to me once pointing at a graveyard, 'so did they'

There is another way and you can do this without owning a practice

Neil

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 14:54:22 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229879#229879"]Vets used to own practices and an often impressive property portfolio allowing a good retirement. This made up for the lower salaries in the earlier stages of their careers. How many vets today will reach retirement owning anything other than the house they live in?[/quote]

But many folk (myself included) don't want to wait till I retire to have the money, or more importantly the time, to enjoy life! To say nothing of the few (like my Dad) who didn't live long enough to retire.

I remember the partners in the first couple of practices I worked in worked less hours and had much more time off than the assistants. (One went to Australia for a month in the summer, leaving us all to share his workload between ourselves - more on call, less days off.) Being a senior partner in a practice now is a whole different scenario - you should know!

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Anthony Todd — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 14:35:42 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229879#229879"]In the short term I believe solo vet night working is unattractive and stressful.[/quote]

Yes but here's an alternative?

Why doesn't someone, for starters, and for instance, just ring all those corporXXXarsXXXX around you and suggest what seems to me as very possibly a workable solution.

Divide all the vets in your area into the rota for each vet and a nurse at each facility and the advantages are obvious!

Instead of dividing nights by 2 or 4 you will be dividing them by many more

If you don't try, you'll never know! And clients will soon realise that "after hours" is just that, an emergency service for emergencies!

If you dangle night's off to any vet I've ever known the eyes light up and smiles appear!

Worked well for me and others, even that unethical so-and-so down the road TH, you know who you are!! [became a standing joke!]

PS once practices start cooperating and communicating you may find other advantages eg day-time staff shortages etc.

[Oh no, I reckon the corpes will veto that..... not that the vets will!

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Bob Russell — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 12:22:10 GMT

Better pay and client charging to allow higher staffing levels. This should assist retention of vets in practice and encourage a broader range of college applicants.

More practice property ownership rather than leasing. This improves the value of practices at retirement as they are passed on to the next generation.

Vets used to own practices and an often impressive property portfolio allowing a good retirement. This made up for the lower salaries in the earlier stages of their careers. How many vets today will reach retirement owning anything other than the house they live in?

The profession has moved to a series of jobs instead of progression.

In the short term I believe solo vet night working is unattractive and stressful. Have pay and conditions changed since VetsNow was purchased by IVC?

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

KMurphy — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 12:19:19 GMT

[quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229876#229876"]If the OOH service is struggling to staff it then what do we do?[/quote]

I don’t have any answers but if the day practice is struggling for staff and can’t cover OOH what do we do?

Hopefully the shortages aren’t all in the same area at the same time...

RE: Where have all the vets and nurses gone?

Nicola Cole — Wed, 14 Apr 2021 12:00:10 GMT

[quote userid="10402" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29770/where-have-all-the-vets-and-nurses-gone/229875#229875"]Just to add to this discussion, the shortage of vets doesn't just apply to OOH service and it doesn't help to suggest that those who aren't doing their own OOH are shirking their responsibilities as vets.[/quote]

I’m not sure that anyone has said that people are shirking their responsibilities?

I think there is genuine concern for where we go from here (both OOH and daytime service). We, as a profession, have to carry out both day and OOH services. If there are multiple jobs available that have no OOH then the clients at those practices have to have their OOH emergencies covered by someone else. If the OOH service is struggling to staff it then what do we do?

Do we need a complete re-think of how the profession offers their services? Genuine question!