Women's safety

RE: Women's safety

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 30 Mar 2021 17:04:50 GMT

I'm reading a book called 'The book you wish your parents had read' by Phillipa Perry.

It's fascinating, it highlights how all our relationships are affected by how we were parented and gives very useful ways to use better language, and both parents and daughter in this instance may find the book helpful.

RE: Women's safety

Bob Russell — Tue, 30 Mar 2021 13:10:17 GMT

This was not my daughter although she gave us more than a run for our money!

My point is that we have schools more interested in their OFSTED scores than the welfare of their pupils. Sexual interactions are earlier and I suspect distorted. There is so much peer pressure and bullying that pushes teenagers further and earlier than ever before.

There are signs of an enormous scandal building up. Some may be hype but I fear what problems are ahead. There are statements from the police suggesting parents should shop their children. Abusers moving up to university or going into the world of work.

I really, really hope this is people jumping on the bandwagon but our experience was of school normalising what previous generations would have considered abnormal. Schools should be respecting parents views and working with them rather than supporting children just because 'it is legal'.

Women's safety starts at home and school and my advice to all parents of teenage children is to talk long and hard to them. Don't just assume all is well because it may well not be.

Smart phones should be banned for all under 18's IMO. Of course that is not going to happen.

RE: Women's safety

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 30 Mar 2021 10:42:14 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229507#229507"]You are missing the point.completely[/quote]

Sorry. Obviously I don't know the individual circumstances.

RE: Women's safety

Bob Russell — Tue, 30 Mar 2021 09:07:06 GMT

You are missing the point.completely!

A just sixteen year old child causing lots of family friction. A mother at her wits end being completely ignored and undermined by a school with her in the room.

I have no objection to anyone being offered advice and assistance to prevent unwanted pregnancy. It can be done without damaging a fragile and troubled relationship. That meeting was the turning point, sadly not in a good direction.

Can you see this happening if the child was Muslim? All hell would have broken loose.

RE: Women's safety

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 29 Mar 2021 08:55:40 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229485#229485"]ow would you feel if an offer to take a child of 16 to a family planning clinic in front of a parent who is struggling with that childs behaviour?[/quote]

I obviously don't know the details - but I see it as very responsible. The last thing that child needs is an STD or a baby.

But I have a different outlook on sex. Its just a bodily function. It doesn't, in itself, define behaviour. And in almost all cases, trying to stop it happening has exactly the opposite effect.

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229485#229485"]There is intense pressure on kids and sixteen year olds are not adults.[/quote]

No they're not, but neither are they children. Treating them as such will result in disaster.

RE: Women's safety

Bob Russell — Sun, 28 Mar 2021 19:47:06 GMT

No it was not the same school as the link and just because it is legal does not make it right.

There is intense pressure on kids and sixteen year olds are not adults. We were faced by rights outgunning what is best.

How would you feel if an offer to take a child of 16 to a family planning clinic in front of a parent who is struggling with that childs behaviour?

There is a lot of talk about boy's feeling entitled but to have a school undermine a parent is far from helpful.

It all turned out as expected, not a single GCSE, did not attend more than a few days college and is now claiming benefit as an adult.

Schools need to be teaching responsibilty and supporting parents when struggling. No chance of that it seems.

Our daughter also had a very rough ride through the same school but has come out amazingly balanced considering. My two sons also went there but under a different head teacher. A very different and happier experience for them.

The school has one priority and that is to maintain the outstanding OFSTED grading. The children seem to be a minor consideration.

RE: Women's safety

bevs2251 — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 23:41:10 GMT

[quote userid="8424" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229109#229109"]In Germany, every three days a woman is killed by her partner or former partner. Every three days. [/quote]

One woman a week killed this way in Australia. Wonder what the stats are for the USA - much higher I'd imagine.

RE: Women's safety

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 22:25:10 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229463#229463"]The school even offered to take her to the family planning clinic without her mothers consent. This was during a meeting at the school and in front of us!! Niece was only just 16 at the time![/quote]

As she was legally allowed to have sex, do they need her mother's consent?

I don't know the details, and it sounds like you all went through a very tough time, but wasn't your daughter allowed to make her own decisions on sexual matters/birth control?

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229463#229463"]If women think they have had it bad just wait until the next generations are let free. It is going to take good parenting skills to keep kids on the straight and narrow.[/quote]

Part of the fight is for women to have the freedom to make their own decisions on everything. Having consensual sex, in itself, isn't 'bad' behaviour. Obviously circumstances matter when the person is 16 though, to ensure it isn't exploitation.

RE: Women's safety

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 17:50:16 GMT

I'm a bit confused, is that your children's school you linked to Bob?

[quote userid="7811" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229460#229460"]That is truly horrific, Bob. [/quote]

Presume you are talking about the link. It's jaw-dropping. Are teachers all ignorant of all of this (reported rape culture), I wonder? Or frightened to say anything?

RE: Women's safety

Bob Russell — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 15:37:24 GMT

Trying to protect my niece we ended up on the wrong end of social services (a group of ignorant b'stards). The school even offered to take her to the family planning clinic without her mothers consent. This was during a meeting at the school and in front of us!! Niece was only just 16 at the time!

I hope this behaviour is not widespread but I fear it is. Schools undermining parenting.

If women think they have had it bad just wait until the next generations are let free. It is going to take good parenting skills to keep kids on the straight and narrow.

RE: Women's safety

Julie Innes — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 12:45:23 GMT

That is truly horrific, Bob.

RE: Women's safety

Bob Russell — Fri, 26 Mar 2021 10:31:15 GMT

Last nights News Night was a shocker. We had a battle with school because it was more interested in telling us and children what their rights were rather than teaching responsibilities. It got very nasty!

Not quite as bad as that school appears to be (claims unsubstantiated).

If boys are being taught or allowed to be 'entitled' at school then we have worse to come.

www.bbc.co.uk/.../uk-england-london-56528002

RE: Women's safety

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 19:00:41 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229440#229440"]The Shana Grice case is a sad and deeply worrying reminder that police (in)action against stalking and harassment simply isn't good enough.[/quote]

No joking. I hadn't heard about that one until you posted it. Here's what wikipedia says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Shana_Grice

RE: Women's safety

Lucy Fleming — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 17:14:12 GMT

The Shana Grice case is a sad and deeply worrying reminder that police (in)action against stalking and harassment simply isn't good enough.

RE: Women's safety

Bob Russell — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 15:08:36 GMT

I was actually police bashing! Some are really great as individuals but the system stinks.

The arrival of a police car should bring confidence and a sense of relief. Like heck it does.

RE: Women's safety

Julie Innes — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 12:56:15 GMT

Not to be police-bashing, but have the police EVER been a trusted refuge for women when it comes to harassment and violence??

It's well documented that a fair amount of police have been guilty of domestic violence.

There is a prevailing reluctance in investigating cases regarding rape and sexual harrassment.

Sometimes it (sadly) seems to me that, despite there no doubt being many many diligent and aware police officers of both sexes, there is still a remnant of the old misogynistic "Men's Club" atmosphere in the whole criminal justice section.

My experiences of the police have reinforced this. Some incidents are harmless, but irritating (eg Got stopped for my car being dirty- was a large animal vet in new company car- and told afterwards "Don't worry, we won't tell your daddy that we stopped you"!) Other experiences were far more troubling (A group of us pulled in by the transport police at Glasgow central, aged 14-15, on our way to a Gangster/ Moll party , for possession of a toy gun. Obvious misunderstanding. they strip-searched the 15 year old boys without any parental consent, and told us girls they would let us go if "you show us your legs")

In every experience I have had with the police they have been patronising in a way I'm not convinced they would have been to a male. I think that is why this particular murder (by a policeman) has brought things into question

RE: Women's safety

Bob Russell — Thu, 25 Mar 2021 10:25:24 GMT

There has been a string of Police scandals recently and one of the paper's obtained a list of cases where there have been complaints. Many of these were upheld, but oddly resignation appears to make the problem go away.

Tales of bullying and misogyny appear regularly. Police officers have been caught filming and sharing privately filmed murder crime scene pictures.

All this smacks of poor leadership and lack of accountability.

I have no doubt that more information regarding the motives for this horrendous murder will come out but there is now an additional danger that police will not be a trusted refuge.

RE: Women's safety

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 18:41:13 GMT

Turbo posting myself now, but there's an important point that was raised in a private message to me about all this.

Thing is, the world's media (and then everyone else) jumped on the murder of Sarah Everard to highlight the issue of sexual harassment of women, when the two really don't have much to do with each other.

Anyone else think the police have got off strangely lightly here as a result, because whilst everyone has been up in arms about women in general, who has been asking how on EARTH a member of the diplomatic protection team, who is essentially trained as a killing machine, and in this case had apparently been exhibiting disturbing signs in the weeks before the murder, and was detained twice, was then allowed to roam the streets?

RE: Women's safety

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:59:58 GMT

[quote userid="4294" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229430#229430"]The way you are coming across here is that you personally wouldn't e.g. shout "nice arse" at a woman you had never met. But you still don't think it's a problem if other men do it (if they are working on a building site, for example). [/quote]

Well, I was brought up in the Benny Hill era, a time when a jovial wolf-whistle was not seen as a problem, no. But there are degrees, and I don't think it has ever been OK to shout 'nice arse / tits / insert part of anatomy here'.

[quote userid="4294" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229430#229430"]You have now accepted that most women don't like it,[/quote]

Yes.

[quote userid="4294" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229430#229430"]but you don't see it as a problem as such.[/quote]

Where do you get this from. I said quite clearly that I DO now recognise it as a problem, because it's all bound up together with more serious issues of assault etc. But perhaps you skimmed past that bit.

So for clarity, I THINK IT IS WRONG FOR MEN TO WOLF-WHISTLE OR CATCALL WOMEN!

RE: Women's safety

vs0u — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:49:29 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229390#229390"]You're right, I have not personally behaved in a way that women ever complained about[/quote]

That's good.

The way you are coming across here is that you personally wouldn't e.g. shout "nice arse" at a woman you had never met. But you still don't think it's a problem if other men do it (if they are working on a building site, for example). You have now accepted that most women don't like it, but you don't see it as a problem as such. This seems a weird attitude to have. If it's ok for a builder why is it not OK for you?

(by the way I don't see it as a class issue. I've had plenty of obnoxious comments from posh/middle class types. Including older male vets and academics.)

And I do agree that most men don't do these things. But for those who do, I wouldn't have any great confidence that given a few drinks, a bad day, a woman who had annoyed them, that it wouldn't escalate into domestic violence or worse. Because it's all part of the same attitude that it's ok to humiliate and shame women.

RE: Women's safety

listhestar — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:05:32 GMT

I think it's sadly telling of society that my Dad wanted me to learn self defence and then was happy I did some kick boxing. I always think of my safety. I will turn down music when I'm out and about. I plan my running routes and people know where I am going and when to expect me back.

I was once called to go to a farm which wasn't on my list (rung boss who forbid me to go). Turned out that client wasn't a regular and had previously served time for murder on dimimished responsibilty grounds.

I've been surrounded by blokes walking through a nightclub who were trying to take photos down my top and were generally handsey. A swift punch to the gut helped me get out of that situation quickly (they were not to be reasoned with and asking nicely and politely hadn't got me far). To be fair bouncer then threw them out. I've been groped many times when out at night in pubs/clubs etc.

That said my male friends are ace, my husband is ace, my brother respects women. It's small although widespread, few men that cause havoc. Sadly slightly pack mentally fuelled with alcohol led to the nightclub incident - I would hope if they looked back on the night they would appreciate their behaviour was unacceptable. Who knows?

Even my nan commented that things were like this in the 60s and although she appreciates they have improved, not to the amount she would have expected.

Lisa

RE: Women's safety

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 11:09:20 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229408#229408"]Now it all makes sense... [/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean by that!

RE: Women's safety

Anthony Todd — Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:55:31 GMT

jeepers Gillian, I thought you were on about consults and too many tests.... until I looked!

RE: Women's safety

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 23 Mar 2021 17:15:25 GMT

Now it all makes sense...

RE: Women's safety

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 23 Mar 2021 10:39:04 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229391#229391"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
Although I note that you seem to recoil in horror at the very suggestion of men being protective of women, which is only slightly further up the scale!

Please show me where I have done this.

[/quote]

That was the way I read your first sentence: "Please tell me you're not suggesting that women are more fearful because men aren't looking after them"

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229391#229391"]OK. I'll rephrase. No person has any issue with people being kind. But there always outliers. But how can we get anywhere if every time I discuss anything you quote the rare examples where you have found the opposite to be true?[/quote]

Sorry, but I am not sure if they are outliers, or a significant minority.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29731/women-s-safety/229391#229391"]Probably because of you being taught well and exposed to good experiences and role models in your formative years.[/quote]

Not sure what you call formative years, but I dunno. I wasn't taught anything about women, or empathy for that matter, or where boundaries lie. I certainly grew up in a more misogynistic world. And as a young man, I objectified women to a degree.