Salary to Turnover ratio

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 04 Feb 2021 00:29:30 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29646/salary-to-turnover-ratio/228306#228306"]Would be interesting to know how they quantify what they're worth[/quote]

The thing is though, a good manager is worth their weight in gold and most practices I have seen were not that well managed. And generally speaking (my apologies for the generalisation) but vets are not the best managers.

[quote userid="2249" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29646/salary-to-turnover-ratio/228288#228288"]There isn't a totally measureable KPI here. Both qualitative and quantitative assessments come into it, hence the wide-ranging benchmark for (small animal only) practices of 4-5 times turnover. [/quote]

I think the same, you can't assess a vet purely on their figures and value to the team can be brought in many ways. It is difficult for someone who doesn't operate to generate the same figures as someone who does but they will feed in cases.

Miriam Lodewyks I'm sorry I have nothing objective to add to this conversation but I would pay them more than what the average is for their experience.

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

Alistair Graham-Evans — Wed, 03 Feb 2021 21:35:53 GMT

Terrible management

Hope that statement doesn’t reflect the whole meeting!

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 03 Feb 2021 14:06:31 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29646/salary-to-turnover-ratio/228299#228299"] I was told by a (non-veterinary) manager that my work barely covered my fees. [/quote]

Would be interesting to know how they quantify what they're worth...

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

Beats — Wed, 03 Feb 2021 09:41:33 GMT

May I suggest politely reminding the manager that tying their pay to what revenue is attributed personally to them may not be a fair reflection of the crucial and vital role they play in the business and generation of profit. Take the conversation you are having with them as proof of this - it has generated no revenue directly attributable to either of your names, but has undoubtedly advanced the aims and profitability of the business vastly, why else would the wise manager be spending both of your time on the conversation?

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

Clive Ansell — Wed, 03 Feb 2021 09:01:40 GMT

[quote userid="2249" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29646/salary-to-turnover-ratio/228288#228288"]Vets should (mostly, I accept it's hard to do this 100% of the time) be seeing through their own work so the clients don't feel that they are being sent from Billy to Jack.[/quote]

That's easier said than done, certainly in larger practices that employ many vets, many part vets, job sharing vets and vets who only consult.

It must be hard, if not almost impossible, to establish exactly who earns what and how much of a valid contribution one makes.

In my locum position before Christmas I only consulted (They don't allow locums to operate because of previous bad experiences - a debate on the rights and wrongs of that another day maybe?). I was told by a (non-veterinary) manager that my work barely covered my fees. When I asked him to explain, it was clear he has only looked at the bottom line on a spreadsheet which is just a total of takings - he had not factored in the revenue generated from booked in investigations and procedures.

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 02 Feb 2021 19:56:22 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29646/salary-to-turnover-ratio/228258#228258"]Genuine question - how does one apportion generated revenue, for management purposes of auditing, accessing performance or determining commission etc, when more than one clinician is involved with a case? something I have never really understood.[/quote]

I agree with James, best to follow through. I also think (assuming everyone does similar work) that these things will tend to average out with time and appreciate that not every case can be done by the same vet or some people in the practice may have special areas of interest. If you like more complex surgery or dentistry and turnover more money then you are worth paying more.

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

James Dunne — Tue, 02 Feb 2021 13:39:00 GMT

hi Clive

There isn't a totally measureable KPI here. Both qualitative and quantitative assessments come into it, hence the wide-ranging benchmark for (small animal only) practices of 4-5 times turnover. If a vet comes to you looking for a raise for example and their ex VAT turnover is > 5 times their salary, there should be no argument, give them a raise. They are either working harder or doing very high value work or both. if someone is doing 4.5 times turnover and very helpful and feeding cases in (maybe they only work mornings/ don't operate etc) then likewise they should also be considered. if their turnover doesn't meet 4 times salary in SA only practice, it is hard to justify pay increases but that individual might be filling in or performing other somewhat useful roles that are not measureable in terms of figures. It is then down to the business owner how much they value that person's contribution and down to that person how much they value themselves to work out what is fair pay. Negotiations are easier both ways when there is a straightforward clinical role involved, but I think Cameron was quoted with 'Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted, counts'. your question about Vet A, B and C smacks of a practice that is not managed well if that happens all the time. Vets should (mostly, I accept it's hard to do this 100% of the time) be seeing through their own work so the clients don't feel that they are being sent from Billy to Jack. And if some vet is just doing the interesting bits and being clever about who they book the clients back to for suture removal, it's time to have a word with them. if you're on the other side of the fence, growing the business, well-liked by clients and staff and you feel your salary doesn't reflect your input, you need to have a think about moving on or putting up your own plate. Hope that doesn't muddy the waters completely!

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

Clive Ansell — Mon, 01 Feb 2021 13:46:37 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29646/salary-to-turnover-ratio/228238#228238"]The standard value would be that you should turnover 4-5X your salary (ex VAT) to justify your existence.[/quote]

Genuine question - how does one apportion generated revenue, for management purposes of auditing, accessing performance or determining commission etc, when more than one clinician is involved with a case? something I have never really understood.

For example; if vet A sees a dog for a vaccination and notices a skin mass, he/she books the dog in for mass removal and histology and creates an estimate. Vet B does the surgery, then Vet C removes the sutures and discusses the histology results. What % is apportioned to each veterinary surgeon involved with the case?

RE: Salary to Turnover ratio

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 31 Jan 2021 18:33:04 GMT

The standard value would be that you should turnover 4-5X your salary (ex VAT) to justify your existence.

All sorts of other considerations can be thrown in to muddy the water. Do you operate at the branch, diagnostics etc? Do you feed in a lot of surgical cases to the main hospital? Where do your turnover figures come from - services (great) or by prescribing long courses of high value antibiotics (not being mean, just making a point). There are more and less ethical ways of increasing your turnover.....

You also have to remember that a single vet branch will have proportionately higher overheads than a multi vet practice. Assuming the space is there it will cost the same for rates, heating, lighting, rent and insurance if 2 or 3 of you were working out of the same site. That is something an employer would have to consider.

Finally remember that your package is more than just money and you may be earning thousands of pounds more per year in benefits (CPD, further study, professional memberships, vehicle, etc etc). That needs adding back in when you look at earnings.