How much does it cost to catch a mole?

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

An On MRCVS — Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:17:05 GMT

It looks like the mole was correct. VR confirm today £49,730. Ouch.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Iain Richards — Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:02:58 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29597/how-much-does-it-cost-to-catch-a-mole/228099#228099"]How refreshing it would be if someone for a polictical body not to ape all others?! [/quote]

Or just coem to the same conclusions by a different route?

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Iain Richards — Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:01:30 GMT

Criticise the actions, no problem

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

David Mills — Mon, 25 Jan 2021 23:59:55 GMT

Usual fudge as far as I can see. Obviously terrible idea. Let's set up a working party/committee/commission. God forbid we actually stand against something. Too near to everything, these organisations. Spreading responsibility, blame, etc.

How refreshing it would be if someone for a polictical body not to ape all others?!

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 25 Jan 2021 19:17:53 GMT

I was watching this thread over the weekend, in particular ...

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29597/how-much-does-it-cost-to-catch-a-mole/228071#228071"]People can be as critical as they like, but both you both blur the lines between crtiicism and insult. [/quote]

and Alastair then in reply to Former Member

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29597/how-much-does-it-cost-to-catch-a-mole/228075#228075"]It is not my intention to insult you but I want to be clear I am making direct and personal criticism of your management of this issue. I think you have (by delaying until the College have had time to fully form their proposals) done your members a disservice. I am happy to accept that your are trying to get it right but I think it would be far better to admit that (even if just in hindsight) you should have provided more resistance to these proposals at an earlier stage. [/quote]

I always have in the back of my mind whether online is EVER the right place for discussions about controversial issues, given the huge potential for expressing things badly or being misread etc.

But then I thought your post Alastair Welch is, if you are going to criticise someone online, the right way to do it.

In other words, if you are going to criticise someone, you should presume they think you're being insulting (especially if you blur the lines), and you should always preface your post with 'it is not my intention', or words to that effect.

I don't know what Daniella and Iain Richards think, but I think that completely transforms a discussion from sounding pretty odious, to 'fair comment' (I am not saying the actual criticism is right or wrong, just that if you're going to do it, that's the way).

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Bob Russell — Mon, 25 Jan 2021 11:56:09 GMT

Regulation of corporate body's should be updated. In 1966 practices could only be owned by veterinary surgeons. for many years we had a decent book called the guide to professional conduct. It was really quite specific in the rights and wrongs of professional behaviour. It could be used as a mini vets 'bible' much of the time. It was a sad day when it was replaced with the present waffle. A guide was much, much better than a so called code.

A good regulator would come up with proposals that could be voted on by the profession. Stop dictating and start regulating honestly. Fair changes for good reason will be accepted.

Instead of getting on with my job and reaching retirement (semi?) feeling I have done my bit and am leaving a fine profession, I am starting to believe I will leave with a sense of relief.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Iain Richards — Mon, 25 Jan 2021 10:24:58 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29597/how-much-does-it-cost-to-catch-a-mole/228072#228072"] you are better than this[/quote]

I'll take the compliment!

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Alastair Welch — Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:26:49 GMT

David,

It sounds like your are a fan of self-flaggelation, someone wants to whip us so we had better hurry up and do it ourselves.

The 1966 Act did not foresee the current veterinary landscape but I'm not sure that this advances the argument for the proposed changes from the LWP. I'm pretty sure that Bupa, Spire etc must follow the rules (whatever they are) but I don't think its the GMC that enforce them.

Change may well be inevitable (although much that is suggested requires primary legislation, and it turns out the Government is a tad on the busy side) but it doesn't mean that the representatives of the practising arm of the profession need be quite so keen to help the regulator make their members lives harder.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

David Bailey — Sun, 24 Jan 2021 20:10:03 GMT

There is often a legal requirement for a public consultation period to be held between stakeholders and regulators prior to any change being introduced that involves a change to existing legislation. I think anyone who thinks that decisions are made in committee or at the consultation process is unfamiliar with regulatory architecture. The consultation process can be portrayed as a open and interactive process that is transparent and progressive or , on the other side, compared to one of a burdensome duty of disclosure that must be as quick as possible and with the least amount of notice and where nothing proposed for consultation will ever be changed by anyone, ever , or presented in a front loaded manner that so much change is included so as to later allow the consultation process to be seen to be flexible and inclusive by removing some of the lighter elements of the proposed changes. The consultation process is a necessary legal requirement put in place to prevent the inevitable judicial review of the first vet to be disciplined if the consultation process was absent or flawed. I don’t think it is fair or reasonable to blame the BVA or single out any individual for what they have or haven’t done. ( I’m not a member of the BVA). I see the eventual successful changes to the draft regulations being solidified into law while turning the regulation from one of self regulation toward one of rule based ‘ smart’ regulation in line with other health service providers. The LWP don’t even try to hide this transitional descriptor of the process. The refer to it as the changes to regulation.... not self regulation. While it is claimed to be principle based system of regulation it is in appearance a combination of principle and rule based regulation. It does give scope for more discretionary interpretation by the regulators which avoids the restraining statutory model we seem to currently have that is plugged up by a code of conduct and principles of certification and day one competences and other satellite guidance. The power has shifted toward the regulators and one of the biggest omissions of the 1966 VSA was the removal of the word person and was replaced with the word individual and this restricted the ability of the act to intervene against a corporate person ( a person, in law, can be a human or a company) and by removing the word person and replacing with individual the act really did set up the tone for the business model in vet practice for the next 50 years. The new changes being considered are a necessary response to the rise of corporate practices, in my view , who are outside the scope of the current legislation because of that single word change. I think it’s inevitable . It is likely to be disruptive . We don’t have to agree to it.... we just may have to accept it.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Bob Russell — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 23:12:21 GMT

I am not worried whether people stand for BVA then RCVS or the other way round. I am more concerned about actions.

The RCVS is trying to extend its powers at a time when confidence in them from at least some is collapsing. They appear to be hiding and secretive. People are seeing agendas that do not seem to be in the interests of the good vets that make up the vast majority of the profession.

The younger members of the profession appear to fear the regulator rather than respect it. Those of us a bit longer in the tooth fear what the new system could bring for vets trying to do a good job.

We do not have the support that our human medicine colleagues do. We do not have such a formal hierarchy and structures they do. We muddle along the best we can on far more limited resources.

There may be a few bad apples in the profession but overall it does an amazing amount for patients and owners alike. Thankfully the general public seem to appreciate us more than our regulators!

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Alastair Welch — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 22:22:53 GMT

Daniella,

The point (I think) you are trying to make is that the BVA has, responded to the RCVS consultation as soon as the College has published their proposals. I would describe this as being 'reactive'.

The point I am trying to make (which I think you are studiously avoiding) is the BVA had a (very) early sight of what the College were planning to propose (the ex President of the BVS Gudrun Ravetz was on the LWP committee ) and they should have massed their armies against these dangerous proposals long ago. That is to say be 'proactive'.

The bare bones of it are that the College want to make it easier to strike vets off, be able to suspend them ahead of any DC hearing, force their way into veterinary practices and extend their reach where they can sanction VS. It would be kind to describe the failure to recognise these changes as detrimental to the interests of BVA members as naive.

It is not my intention to insult you but I want to be clear I am making direct and personal criticism of your management of this issue. I think you have (by delaying until the College have had time to fully form their proposals) done your members a disservice. I am happy to accept that your are trying to get it right but I think it would be far better to admit that (even if just in hindsight) you should have provided more resistance to these proposals at an earlier stage.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Ex Member — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 19:33:23 GMT

I haven’t taken anything you have said as an insult or form of bullying, but I do think you’re choosing to hear what you want to hear whenever BVA (I can’t speak for RCVS) comes up.

There was a BVA governance review and restructure about 6-7 years ago, which I feel like you ignore, often referring to things that happened before that. I am not the establishment, I am not the “Old Boys Club”. I am a normal first opinion vet (employee, don’t own my own practice, not a CD or similar), and I applied to be a BVA officer as I wanted to make sure the voice of the first opinion vet is heard. I’ve never travelled first class on a plane during my time as an officer, nor stayed in fancy hotels. When I travelled I usually ended up in a Holiday Inn. I assure you I have no intention of joining the RCVS.

There are plenty of ways for members to get involved: via regional representatives, council, or even getting in touch directly. There are no nods or winks.

Your questions are our response to the LWP. We couldn’t respond without knowing what questions were being posed. As soon as they were released, we set up work groups to make sure we heard all views, and held a webinar to encourage people to engage with us. All our papers are freely available for all to see, and I have written blogs summarising the thoughts to make it easier for people to understand. I would urge you to read those papers, open access to all including non members, before assuming we are in agreement with the RCVS.

Many call for “ordinary” vets (like me) to sit on these bodies, and yet when they do ignore the fact we are there. My 2 fellow officers are also first opinion farm and zoo vets. The make up of any body is only as diverse or representative as those who apply to join them.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

David Mills — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 19:12:00 GMT

Oh Iain, I have worked shoulder to shoulder with you, even spoken to you for advice: you are better than this.

Do not throw the insult or bullying card.

Just answer the questions about the BVA, or choose not to. Or add to the debate.

Don't play the man, you're better than that.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Iain Richards — Sat, 23 Jan 2021 19:05:57 GMT

Alastair/David

People can be as critical as they like, but both you both blur the lines between crtiicism and insult. Jon Wray was in a simialr vein, yet somehow I always felt he was playing the ball, albeit in a Tommy Smith fashion. You may feel that there are too many that serve on both college and RCVS council, perhaps it's no more than being a certain personality prepared to put in the time. However, As I said earlier, I'm pretty sure most of those on RCVS council now and in the recent past have not been officers or committees for BVA. So it's not as cosy as you may think. ONce we've finished disussing the LWP, I may well discuss it here. If I have the energy

I'd also point out that I read these posts even form those that I think are repeating themselves, just in case there is something there that I can utilise, as I do with the SPVS list and Vet Voices, so all voices do get heard, even non-members.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

David Mills — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 23:21:30 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29597/how-much-does-it-cost-to-catch-a-mole/228061#228061"] I do hope you are standing for RCVS council[/quote]

Ah, vetsurgeon.org's very own Godwin's Law. Criticise a political body, and when the responder runs out of replies or energy this is trotted out.

Let's examine this statement. Do you need to stand for RCVS (or BVA) because you're interested in the regulatory, and other strands, of the future of the profession? No. One can be interested, invested, in politics and not become a politician. In fact, it can be said that people can do more for the profession outside these austere bodies than inside (look at the GPs who have given time and effort and energy to the RCVs only to be chewed up, spat out and left with a black mark next to their name); certainly one can do more to satisfy the raison d'etre of the whole profession. One person on council? Should we ask Bob Partridge and Chris Barker where this got them? Yes they stood up gallantly for the majority voice, whilst being overwhelmingly in the minority. Excluded from committees and departments. Eventually leaving disillusioned.

Let's examine it further. The implication that have a strong political opinion = stand for RCVS has a flip: if you don't, then your opinions are somehow less important. Only those with the wherewithal to stand for Council have true convictions. Only those that stand for Council have opinions worth listening to. Go on, show us your strength of conviction.

Still, deeper we may delve. Whilst you may be elected to Council, you do not stand on a slate or manifesto. You are there to give a voice, but you are not an MP, part of a party or movement. Much of it is rubber-stamping, adding some agreement by numbers to the drudgery and tediousness of regulation. As we have seen, most of this business is now behind closed doors, councillors shackled, gagged, and if they speak out, reviled, tainted, accused, marginalised, cast out.

Now let's look at the BVA's work on this. Are they pushing for RCVS reform, maybe remove the inequality of Council, the influence of academics, the registrar, the unrepresentative nature. 98% of MRCVS are practising veterinary surgeons, around 92-95% in first opinion practice - are they well represented on Council? Are BVA aware of this? Do they care? Is there a blog I can read about it?

I was a member of BVA once, and was a new graduate representative many years ago when we shared a town, Iain. Enlightenment came when I posted on here about how the Pres was flying first class to Brussels to attend a glad-handing session and dinner/summit/pointless exercise, staying at a £300-a-night hotel, all paid out of members fees. The very next morning I got a call from Pres Harvey (ex or future RCVS? I can barely recall), taking me to splenetic task for lifting the lid on this remarkable waste of membership money. So it seems veterinary political membership bodies are all of a similar closed ranks makeup; an old boys club if you will, come on inside but don't tell our secrets wink wink. Masonic, almost.

The regular migration of voice to regulator is similar to tax lawyers working for HMRC and then being poached by big banks to tell them how to circumnavigate regulation, except in reverse. The same old faces, same old tired opinions pop up time and time again.

JGW pummelled the RCVs about the RCVS overspend and the extension. Now we have the sale of Belgravia House and its lease issues. As the storm clouds gather time and time again, confidentially of course old chap, one would be silly if one didn't expect rain.

Decisions and RCVS, even BVA, politics aren't democratic, they are a nod, a wink, a phone call, an exercise in obfuscation and grey areas; council merely adds the superficial crust, or gloss of respectability. Look at the amateurish, embarrassing playground pursuit, a cool £50k later (where's the oversight? Responsibility? Accountability?) to find a mole. What, pray, has the BVA's response to this been, or will we be informed in 6-12 months?

I will happily take a wager, for charity, off anyone, that out of the current BVA senior leadership, at least one ends up at RCVS in the next five years.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Alastair Welch — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 22:50:40 GMT

Ian I simply don’t agree. The BVA and the College have far too close a relationship and the possibility that members of the former can move to join the latter in close order lays them open to the suggestion that they have half an eye on their next gig. The future gamekeepers masquerading as a poacher. It does not sit well with me.

The secretive committee structure is precisely the reason standing for Council would be, for me, a waste of time. Yes I would happily vote against all of their crazy ideas but it’s all been stitched up in committee months earlier.

I have better things to do.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Iain Richards — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 22:26:31 GMT

Boys. You are so full of good intent and ideas, I do hope you are standing for RCVS council

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Iain Richards — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 22:25:07 GMT

It's not an unreasonable thing to do is it if one has an interest in the work or are good at it. I'm trying to think of the last BVA presidents if any went to RCVS, Pete Jinman was the last. Of the current RCVS council Danny is I thikn the only one to be part of BVA committee (no longer on it) and Sue Paterson ex BSAVA.

I agree with you on the secretive way RCVS make decisions.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

David Mills — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 22:02:40 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29597/how-much-does-it-cost-to-catch-a-mole/228056#228056"]As I say the BVA's inability to instantly recognise (and organise well in advance of the publication of the proposals) tells me what I need to know.[/quote]

Similarly, for practising vets there seems to be little or no merit in the proposals, especially you would hope when there was early oversight of them. A simple, consistent, public, whole-scale rejection of them at their inception would have both raised awareness of them and their dangers and possibly energised more into filling in the consultation train-wreck document. A voice for vets, if you will.

It does make one scratch one's head the time taken for the BVA to get to this point, especially in the era of rapid IT and virtual meetings.

How refreshing it would be for both the RCVS and BVA to make it a condition of office that you can't go and work for either side 5 years before or after working for one or the other. They are increasingly indistinguishable to most people especially over the last few months. The cosying up in the name of 'solidarity' was ill-thought and hubristic. I would have expected the BVA to be pushing the RCVS on detail, employee protection in workplaces etc etc. I can't remember the last BVA press release or publicity I saw. Ho hum.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Alastair Welch — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:27:53 GMT

As I say the BVA's inability to instantly recognise (and organise well in advance of the publication of the proposals) tells me what I need to know. The College makes decisions in camera (in the secret committees hand picked by the executive, it provides a complex method of 'consultation' and then the full Council rubber stamps the decision).

The path from BVA leadership/committee team on to Belgravia House is well trodden (I think that Danny Chambers is the most recent example, but there are plenty and I doubt he will be the last). It is not a healthy relationship, the College are not our friends, they don't look out for us (it increasingly looks like they re out to get us) and the BVA should recognise this.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Ex Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:12:10 GMT

I have no issue with critique of the BVA.

I would however ask you to read the papers to see where we stand on the things you raise.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Alastair Welch — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 19:07:23 GMT

The proposed changes are so obviously against the interests of veterinary surgeons (they might or might not be good for animal owners, they might or might not be good for animals, they might or might not be good for the College, but the BVA should look after its members interests )that you didn't need to wait for them to be published to realise that your are against them.

Interim suspension, powers of entry, changing the burden of proof, need I go on? On what planet are these good news fore VS? The BVA's inactivity during the formulation of this proposal has allowed it to mature to such a stage that its hard to see the tanker turning around now.

Don't delay come out against them today, make it clear to the College that you don't agree with them and that you will do your best to scupper the proposals> give the opportunity to kick it in to the long grass and save a bit of face. Remember they re not our friends.

I am not a BVA member (nor was I when you asked me the same question before), I used to be but its not exactly what I would call value for money. It is perfectly reasonable to critique the BVA without being a member.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Ex Member — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 18:47:02 GMT

Hi Alastair,

Having a representative on the original LWP is not the same as agreeing with the recommendations, in fact I would argue without our presence the recommendations may have looked different, possibly worse, we don’t know.

As for being slow out of the traps, how can we respond to a consultation when we don’t know what the questions will be? How can we respond without giving members the time to tell us what they think? Also, have a look at the date on or working group papers, compare to when the consultation was launched...I would say we moved fast.

For clarity: are you a BVA member? Also, have you read our working group papers, open access to all for transparency? If so, and you’re a BVA member, would be great for you to email in with any concerns you have with our proposed response so we can consider and address them.

Sarah Keir I have written a series of blogs currently being published on our website which I hope makes understanding the recommendations and our thoughts much easier. Do drop me a message if you’ve got any questions

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Iain Richards — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 18:43:30 GMT

Slow? The working groups were created fairly soon after the publication of the LWP report.

As to committee types, well it does indeed take certain attributes to be prepared to put time and effort in for either BVA, its divisions, or RCVS.

RE: How much does it cost to catch a mole?

Alastair Welch — Fri, 22 Jan 2021 18:02:57 GMT

Ian,

Why is the BVA so slow out of the traps? They knew this was coming a long time ago (the ex President sat on the committee which suggested it!). The BVA should recognise that they are not there to look after animals, or consumers but their members. There is far too cosy a relationship between the BVA and the College (and the number of 'committee types' who appear in both organisations over the years tells its own story). Working parties and policy committees are perfect to hide the collaboration! The BVA should stop pontificating and come out with both barrels fully against the recommendations of the LWP.