Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

George Cooper — Thu, 19 Nov 2020 15:55:26 GMT

Hi Niall

It is nigh on 20 yers since I left "my" practice in Hereford, and as she was well retired back then, I suspect that if she isn't pushing up thistles nowadays, her ability to hear when taking a call would give rise to interesting conversations! Bless her, Dorothy was perfection. It earned her a reasonable bit of sherry money, and probably more importantly gave her a never-ending stream of people with whom she had contact. She formed strong friendships with those who called us most often, and could be relied upon to use initiative if things got hairy, like the night when two calvings came in two minutes before a foaling, and a whelping. She got it sorted. Niall, her surname was Cumberland, and a quick shufti at a local directory might be useful.

That said, there's a Dorothy Cumberland at 19A Davidson Street, Broughty Ferry, and it was verified on 20/9/20. Might be worth a tap on the door!!

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 19 Nov 2020 10:58:50 GMT

I think we might be talking about different things. Yes, vets still build a relationship with clients but different than the business as a whole.

Health plans, own insurance, mypet, etc are all used to tie the client in with the business and not the individual vet. Look at how many are manned by locums.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 19 Nov 2020 08:54:24 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226844#226844"]

Dinu Catilina said:
Corporates made it worse, a corporate has no interest in building a client-vet relationship, they are building a client-practice or client-product relationship, vets are just becoming less relevant

Not sure I agree, vets are still the most client facing part of the business, and regardless of the ownership it is the vets that will build or break the client relationship.

[/quote]

I concur with Rob

I've worked and am working in a lot of corporates principally IVC. I see no difference between the vets/client relationship in a corporate or an independent.

Neil.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Rob Loxley — Thu, 19 Nov 2020 08:50:07 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226816#226816"]Corporates made it worse, a corporate has no interest in building a client-vet relationship, they are building a client-practice or client-product relationship, vets are just becoming less relevant[/quote]

Not sure I agree, vets are still the most client facing part of the business, and regardless of the ownership it is the vets that will build or break the client relationship.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:12:14 GMT

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226755#226755"]In the midst of all this self-congratulatory back-patting, I just wonder how many have asked the significant others, the children, who have had to endure Mummy or Daddy being professional heroes, working nights and weekends, missing important bits of their lives?[/quote]

Sorry George, I just seen your post. You know, being on call doesn't have to be any of that. What you described is poor management.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

niall morton — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 23:06:40 GMT

George, I wonder if your widow is still around. My practice is in Broughty Ferry.... small world

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Dinu Catilina — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 16:36:26 GMT

This really went off topic lol.

Anyhow, how much I would pay a 2 year grad? Depends how much they are willing and capable to do and if an UK graduate then on average 35.000 to 40.000 for 40 hours/week. On call is a must but also paid if they are called out. 1 in 5. If east european graduate then 30.000 as they will need more work to settle in the british ways (one of them myself before anyone thinks I'm discriminating).

On call - I so much agree with Michael.

I don't blame the only the vets though, younger or older, this is a complex situation caused by corporatisation and a change in the veterinarian - client dynamics. It used to be a familiar relationship, people knew you, you knew them, there was mutual respect and being vet placed you a bit higher on the social hierarchy. Now clients are looking for the cheaper or faster option changing the relationship in to a seller-buyer one. It's suddenly a shop where if you pay you expect to get what you want. Vets also want to earn more and work less. Earn what they deserve, whatever that means in a free market...

There is also this strange tendency of hating your clients, so many posts on facebook where vets seem to see people as an inconvenience. No wonder everybody is unhappy.

Corporates made it worse, a corporate has no interest in building a client-vet relationship, they are building a client-practice or client-product relationship, vets are just becoming less relevant.

We do have the odd weekend, like the last one when one of the vets did 4 caesarians but we had none for about 3 weeks before. Saturdays 9-12 but no vaccines, puppy checks or silly things.

I do receive calls in the night for non true emergencies but many are just panicking owners. We assure them, give some advice and tell them to call back tomorrow. I don't think it's a massive issue and it helps building a good relationship.

P.S. my apologies for spamming every topic available but I'm bored to death at home isolating with Covid.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Bob Russell — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 11:27:32 GMT

During lockdown we ran Saturdays as emergency only because of staff issues. Since opening as normal our Saturdays are really quiet. Manic during the week, quiet at the weekend - long may it last!

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Julie Innes — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 10:18:27 GMT

I think that is the problem with on call nowadays- it's not actually about seeing emergencies, it's about seeing people at their convenience.

I did on call in my first 4 jobs- first was a mixed practice, which sounds similar to Michael's set up, where I saw genuine farming emergencies, and most people with pets wouldn't "bother" the vet unless their dog was run over or had a real emergency.

fast forward to second job (small animal only) in a town- most people still reasonable, but did get called out for lots of silly things that owners demanded be seen (fleas at 3am, boiled sweet stuck to fur, dog with erection...)

Moved back to Glasgow, did less on call, but when you were on you were called a lot! had a call on Christmas day from someone who had cancelled their cat's dental but now wanted it done. Phone never stopped, no chance of doing anything.

Started up on my own as a one-vet practice, 3 children 3,5,and 7. Decided I couldn't manage on call as well, especially as other half in the forces and spent half his time in the Gulf! I am amazed at the number of people who are seen by our OOH provider for anal glands, broken toe nails, itchy feet, vomited once, not to mention the number of "advice only" calls. And that is despite the cost of going there!

I don't honestly think I could go back to being on call. Even in daytime practice I find people hugely demanding these days. I miss the common courtesy and consideration I feel used to be there. I still enjoy aspects of my job, but I need my evenings and weekends to recharge

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Julian Earl — Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:58:43 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226774#226774"]any practices in our area do routine consultations during the weekend and I believe they can be quite busy.[/quote]

At risk of starting a game of Top Trumps on this subject. One weekend in Preston so many, many years ago I had to undertake 19 visits between Saturday lunctime when the surgery "closed" and the Monday morning. Why so many? A simple reason. Everybody was snowed in so could not get to the practice after mid-Saturday morning! But never mind, we were still expected to get to them, which I did without any mishaps driving in the tick snow! I cannot recall any of them being a true outright emergency! A lot of vomiting and diarrhoea as I recall but nothing more dramatic than that! Such is veterinary life!!

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 17 Nov 2020 14:04:14 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226757#226757"]Open as normal 8.30-12.00 on Sat. Was on this weekend and stayed until about 5.30pm. Sunday went in lunchtime and left about 5pm. Some weekends quient, some awful. Have done 12 calls myself one Sunday.[/quote]

I guess it depends on your location and your practice size. If clients knew we were open on a Sunday, even if only for emergencies, there's no way we would have any less than 20 calls. Almost anything can be an 'emergency'.

Many practices in our area do routine consultations during the weekend and I believe they can be quite busy.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 17 Nov 2020 07:58:29 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226757#226757"]Not sure in 14 years I've missed anything I specifically wanted to do. Swap nights etc.[/quote]

Give it a few years. You'll think back , smile, and wonder what you did with all your free time.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 21:22:06 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226733#226733"]- on full a working day, approximately what time do you finish?[/quote]

We are open 8.30-6.00. Get away within half an hour of that probably 4/5 nights

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226733#226733"]-on an evening on call, how many times does your phone ring?[/quote]

Varies so much. Some nights last week no calls, one vet had 4 separate animals to see

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226733#226733"]-on a Weekend on call, what hours do you expect to be in work?[/quote]

Open as normal 8.30-12.00 on Sat. Was on this weekend and stayed until about 5.30pm. Sunday went in lunchtime and left about 5pm. Some weekends quient, some awful. Have done 12 calls myself one Sunday.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226735#226735"]In most jobs it is standard hours.[/quote]

No, no. I found that the AVERAGE UK working week is 39 hours. 35 vastly less.

I can see how doing 12 hour days you may get your hours in with a 4 day week, but then you have a whole extra day to do things!

How many OOH calls would the average 4 vet small animal practice generate per night? Doubt it's much different. I know people who've done shifts for OOH providers and slept all night, seen 1 dog etc.

Our average week is 5 days 8.30-6.00 with a half day each week and a full Monday off after a weekend worked. I think it's pretty generous.

[quote userid="2122" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226755#226755"]missing important bits of their lives?[/quote]

Not sure in 14 years I've missed anything I specifically wanted to do. Swap nights etc.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

George Cooper — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 19:27:22 GMT

So much of this "heroic" thread is only about "me, me, me" - with the exception for those who do not have other "commitments" to be fussed about.

In the midst of all this self-congratulatory back-patting, I just wonder how many have asked the significant others, the children, who have had to endure Mummy or Daddy being professional heroes, working nights and weekends, missing important bits of their lives?

Personally, having qualified in '72 and - as others - having worked nights and weekends, the greatest step that we took as a practice was to have our phones answered by a Hereford widow who moved to Broughty Ferry and still did our weekend and night phones for us. (This to the point that farming clients would, despite an 'urgency' on farm, engage with her in a chat about life and the universe for 10-20 minutes, such was her involvement in our practice!). The freedom granted by the removal of phone answering was simply mind-blowing!

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Lasercat — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:02:36 GMT

Ha ha no I'm pretty thick skinned

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Beats — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 13:33:38 GMT

[a generic internet thread beginning with a simple question:]

Does anyone have a rough price for getting a new electric shower installed?

Contributor 1: Yes, about £120-£450, depending on model and part of the country you are in.

Contributor 2: Electric showers lead to electrocutions - I wouldn't go near one - you want a bath instead. If you don't live in a house that has a bath then you should move. If you can't afford to move, then you should reconsider your life priorities. I have a bath - it's a huge bath.

Contributor 3: Have you thought about the energy usage of heating water and the effect it is having on the world? I think it is very selfish to want to shower in hot water and this will ultimately lead to ruin for you and everybody else. It's pointless anyway - I only ever have cold showers and they have made me the man I am today - I'm surprised you snowflakes don't melt in a hot shower.

Contributor 4: Showering is pointless. It is based on the illogical belief that having your own distinctive odour is a bad thing. I never shower and my boar-like odour is so attractive that I am irresistible to the point that I have to beat my chest and bellow to repel the women who flock to me, only this only seems to attract them more so I must give in.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Iain Richards — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:55:18 GMT

Lasercat I do hope you are not discouraged by the way this thread has morphed!

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:21:07 GMT

Yes Gillian I’m agreeing with you that our case load in terms of working day length is significantly better. I would hate to be working till 8pm as a routine. And having heard of other vets consulting for most of the day, I’d hate that too! I like the variety of work we do, and the flexibility of managing our workload to suit which vets are in that day.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Sarah Keir — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 11:24:14 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226699#226699"]I really would consider that part time[/quote]

I'm not specifying if this should be considered part or full time, it is more your assumption that this is an 'issue'

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:15:25 GMT

[quote userid="7269" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226734#226734"] I also think it is very good for young vets to do some out of hours, they learn a lot about their abilities and how to cope. [/quote]

I agree, done properly in a supported environment. I was referring to the comment that 35 hours is part time. In most jobs it is standard hours.

[quote userid="7269" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226734#226734"]we probably average one or two evening calls a week, and weekends can vary from very quiet, to being in the surgery a large part of the day on one or other of the weekend days. [/quote]

I don't think this would be the case in most busy 'town' practices.

[quote userid="7269" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226734#226734"]our last appointment is 6pm[/quote]

I'm working a standard day at my locum practice today - 8am to 8pm. I think you'd agree there is a massive difference in getting home at 6pm to getting home at 8.30pm?

I'm not arguing for or against any particular hours or OOH set up. Every practice does what's right for them. I just don't like the idea that doing more hours is, in itself, harder. It isn't. And if I was to give advice, I'd recommend a new grad goes to a practice that does hours like yours plus on call, rather than one that is busy and is open long hours without on call.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 09:03:42 GMT

I find myself more in agreement with Michael here, I’ve done on call for my whole (long) working life, for many years it was 1 in 2, (a short but tough period it was 2 in 3), and now 1 in 4. We are equine and small animal (60% as, 40% eq). I also think it is very good for young vets to do some out of hours, they learn a lot about their abilities and how to cope. As Gillian is suggesting, there is a big difference being on call for a relatively small practice in terms of number of call outs, we probably average one or two evening calls a week, and weekends can vary from very quiet, to being in the surgery a large part of the day on one or other of the weekend days.

We do have a generous time off rota, all vets have a full weekday off, and 2 days in the lead up to weekend on, we find this helps recruitment and well being. As Michael also says night swaps are relatively common, as are occasional weekend swaps for weekends away (when any of us had those!). I’ve managed to keep up a pretty good social life working around nights off (and also often being designated driver when on call!).

I think the week day pattern is definitely shorter than some city practices, our last appointment is 6pm, so we usually finish 6.30 to 7 if we are on call. Vets not on call usually get away 5.30 to 6. But then this is partly as we are not putting phones through to an ooh provider. We are proud of our ability to do our own ooh, it is a reason people change to us (that and the fact we are independent too).

Congratulations on the upcoming arrival Michael, your nights will become even more disrupted.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 07:59:46 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226713#226713"]14 years in, 1 in 4 on call, and loving it. 9 years as a practice owner[/quote]

Just a couple of questions Michael. Please answer honestly.

- on full a working day, approximately what time do you finish?

-on an evening on call, how many times does your phone ring?

-on a Weekend on call, what hours do you expect to be in work?

I'm not judging you - I really do think it is lovely that you've found your vocation and are obviously loving it and doing a great job. Our profession needs people like you. I was the in the same mindset for many many years. But small animal practice is not the same place it was 20 years ago when I qualified. Back then I worked a basic 50 hour week plus on call. But we had lots of breaks during the day, often getting to pop home for an hour or two at lunchtime, only one or two calls a night.

Other people will still, no doubt, be in jobs like that and hopefully living their best life. However, many many folk are not. That's the only reason i ask that you don't belittle someone for choosing a 35 hour week - their 35 hours may be different to your 35 hours.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Julian Earl — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:53:25 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29496/pay-for-a-small-animal-vet-with-2-years-uk-experience/226722#226722"]ost over on VV today about a sad new graduate who kept running behind and their mentor had suggested they try and do things a bit faster...... (duh).[/quote]

Oh yes!! I reognise that situation. My first boss , in Preston was over-bearing, critical and unhelpful. He eventually sked me to leave if I could not operate any faster! So how many times did he offr to assist me, eg with the very first Bitch- Spey presented, an obese Labrador that did take me heaven knows how long? Not once did he offer to help in my nine months that I endured the job. For that particular Spey, I was helped by the highly qualified and experienced NZ- veterinary nurse, Christine Gee and the dog survived! I moved to Burnley where my two new bosses, David and Brian were completely different and very helpful indeed. I am still good friends with them despite having left their Burnley practice in 1989! Thanks David G., and Brian J.H.

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

David Mills — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:48:14 GMT

Christ, even in Lancashire we occasionally light a candle when the harvest has been good.

Amazing the directions these threads go in...

Out of interest did your wife keep the "obey" part in the vows??

RE: Pay for a small animal vet with 2 years UK experience

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 23:44:07 GMT

Of course - do you think I'm made of brass......