Fertility clinic and veterinary care

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Nick Jackson — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 14:55:45 GMT

Thanks everyone for your help suggestions and also this discussion which I think has brought up some very interesting points.

I have actually contacted the RCVS regarding one clinic and they have said that they would refer to the police if there is evidence of foul play. I await the outcome of their investigations at present.

On one of the other points raised, there clearly is a demand for reproduction assistance in the dog breeding world. I am sure there a significant number of these engaging with vets who are happy to help, though I really havent seen much of this in practice and many breeders are treated as a nuisance in practice or looked down on as profiteering (arent we all out to make a living?).

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 11:41:14 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226494#226494"]It's pretty rich a group of people (vets) bitching so heavily about breeders as they simultaneously make their living from treating the progeny (dogs)? No?[/quote]

100% agree about this and I always wondered why in the UK dog breeding is viewed as it is and so different from Europe, USA, Australia, etc. All countries from western civilisation and with quite a lot in common otherwise. There are numerous reproductive veterinary practices in all these parts, manned by vets trained in this field with non vet "fertility clinics" basically non-existent. My speculation is that UK is still a very class divided country and dog breeding is considered low class. Cow or horse breeding is fine but dog breeding is bad. And this is very obvious in the younger vets who come out of uni with this approach to dog breeding.

Another speculation is that people here antropomorphise dogs.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226494#226494"]Dinu Catilina I tend to think £600 (£500 plus VAT) isn't bad earnings for an hours work - people charging 2 or 3 times that are doing far more to animal welfare. With us that would include adequate analgesia.....[/quote]

Fair point this, I shouldn't comment on anyone's prices without knowing their overheads. And I agree with the second part as well, I was just talking with some Swedish breeders and a caesarian OOH is not 4000-5000 euros.

Maybe this is also a different topic but could this situation be a consequence of vets wanting to be animal doctors? I see all the time comparisons with GPs and surgeons in ours worked, pay, success, respect from clients, etc. Are vets seeing pets less as livestock and more of a family member.

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226501#226501"]The problem is, many of us come across far more bad breeders than good ones. It is unfortunately inevitable; the puppy trade is lucrative and unregulated and will therefore attract the wrong and criminal types. Regretably, our profession condones and facilitates this. [/quote]

I see more good breeders than bad and if anyone wants to do a good job (and not cheapest) then the good clients will come.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Clive Ansell — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 10:46:15 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226488#226488"]we should look in to our own backyard at the vets doing elective caesarians for every dog in sight for 600 quid with no pain relief or decent care. [/quote]

I can beat that!

Did a one week locum in 2018, small one man practice that "specializes" in brachy reproduction.

Elective c-section for a Bulldog or French Bulldog, £350, which as an added bonus includes Loxicom and the human generic fluoroquinolone Ciprofloxacin to go home with! No opiate analgesia at all.

Many of these travel in excess of a 100 miles in each direction, so no effective arrangement for OOH cover either.

I've been tempted to name and shame, but have resisted so far. I made my views known at the time, funnily enough I haven't been invited back (Thankfully)

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Bob Russell — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 10:30:08 GMT

Responsible and semi-professional breeders especially of working dogs tend to behave like farmers. They value the animals and the professionalism of the vets.

The breeders people are grumbling about are those that want something for nothing, are always right or know someone that is. They are clueless which is why they value charlatans yet fail to value the knowledge of professionals.

My way of sorting out the good from the dross is by assessing behaviour should things not go well. A professional should still say thank you for trying, the others send you a solicitors letter

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Clive Ansell — Fri, 06 Nov 2020 10:05:38 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226494#226494"]If people are doing this for a living then obviously it is in their best interests to rear as many puppies to the point of sale as possible?[/quote]

Fair enough, as long as it is done ethically, honestly and legally, and there is no impingement on any animals welfare.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226494#226494"]I'm very happy giving substantial discounts on vaccines/microchips etc as you can healthcheck, chip and vacc a basketful of puppies VASTLY faster than one brought in by a new, inept, owner. In the same way I charge very little to kennel cough a batch of well-behaved shooting dogs lined up in the back of a pickup. [/quote]

Again, fair enough. These are purely business or commercial decisions though, not clinical.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226494#226494"]I like puppies. I'd say we have a number of very responsible professional and semi-professional breeders, who a reasonable chunk of their income comes from breeding dogs. Most are shooting/working animals,[/quote]

I can't speak for others, but I have no objection to the breeding of dogs if it is done properly, for the right reasons, and they make a reasonable effort to breed good puppies and breed out heritable defects.

The problem is, many of us come across far more bad breeders than good ones. It is unfortunately inevitable; the puppy trade is lucrative and unregulated and will therefore attract the wrong and criminal types. Regretably, our profession condones and facilitates this.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 23:24:54 GMT

Interesting and I'm not sure if we should split off as a separate discussion?

It's pretty rich a group of people (vets) bitching so heavily about breeders as they simultaneously make their living from treating the progeny (dogs)? No?

If people are doing this for a living then obviously it is in their best interests to rear as many puppies to the point of sale as possible? I'm very happy giving substantial discounts on vaccines/microchips etc as you can healthcheck, chip and vacc a basketful of puppies VASTLY faster than one brought in by a new, inept, owner. In the same way I charge very little to kennel cough a batch of well-behaved shooting dogs lined up in the back of a pickup. When running any business you have to be in control of your costs, why should a dog breeder operate differently? Are you in a vet buying group? What do you do to control costs in your business? Can you really add value to make your vacc/chip/healthcheck package 'better', or should they shop around for a practice that values the business and recognises the efficiency of this work?

I like puppies. I'd say we have a number of very responsible professional and semi-professional breeders, who a reasonable chunk of their income comes from breeding dogs. Most are shooting/working animals, if that makes it better (although we have one guy who breeds Frenchies). We do lots of hip scoring, genetic testing etc. I'd actually like to get more involved in this kind of work.

Dinu Catilina I tend to think £600 (£500 plus VAT) isn't bad earnings for an hours work - people charging 2 or 3 times that are doing far more to animal welfare. With us that would include adequate analgesia.....

(casers in all species my fave op - once did a cow a sheep and a dog in the same day).

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 22:40:44 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226473#226473"]What planning consent is needed for such places? There will have to be some[/quote]

Most likely they are classed as petshops.

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226479#226479"] I don't know which clinics take these people on, or in what circles these breeders mix, but it's all about yield and minimising cost. The nature of pregnancy and reproduction mean low cost and successful rarely go hand in hand, and just leads to unnecessary misery. [/quote]

Well said. Maybe before judging those fertility clinics we should look in to our own backyard at the vets doing elective caesarians for every dog in sight for 600 quid with no pain relief or decent care.

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226486#226486"] I have always felt that people who show dogs or cats do it because they are competitive but actually not good at anything. [/quote]

Thank you Kate that is a lovely thing to say, I'll just go tell the wife she married a looser

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Kate Richardson — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 21:42:00 GMT

I think that’s the difference- the good ones do it because they enjoy it ie it’s more of a hobby that maybe makes some money or just pays for itself, the bad ones do it purely for profit and self esteem. I have always felt that people who show dogs or cats do it because they are competitive but actually not good at anything.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Clive Ansell — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 18:29:14 GMT

[quote userid="8991" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226479#226479"]'Professional' breeders - I'm sure some good ones exist, I just haven't met any. [/quote]

I've met some, but they are few and far between. One of my regular practices has a good Labrador breeder, who is genuinely keen to do it well and breed good dogs to improve the breed. More of a hobby for them really.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Clive Ansell — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 18:11:34 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226480#226480"]Dirt cheap, non-vet hip x-rays[/quote]

Isn't there a dodgy vet in your neck of the woods somewhere that does hip rads for breeders on the cheap - heavy ACP only sedation and the client hold the dog's hindlegs for rads to be taken?

About 3 or 4 years ago, I was presented at 6.45pm one Friday with a GSD that had travelled that day 200 miles each way in blazing summer heat to this place. Collapsed with heat stroke - pushed to Vets-Now once stable = massive bill. Although we and VN saved the dog, we were the ones this suck head complained about!

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Bob Russell — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 16:05:07 GMT

The problem is they don't use practices most of the time. Not enough to make them viable financially.

Dirt cheap, non-vet hip x-rays

Non-vet 'reproductive' services charlatans.

Cheap and nasty microchips (nasty databases)

Only approach practices when the sh+t hits the fan, expects them to drop everything and sort out the problem for minimal cost.

Some practices do deal with these people but pile em up high, sell em cheap. Breeders will travel half the day to get a cheaper price.

Not worth the trouble for the money earned. Not sure what these people expect if they behave this way. Still a puppy sells for thousands!!

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

David Mills — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 15:55:26 GMT

In the dim and distant past of private practice, the 'best' breeders were hobby ones, who didn't claim to know anything and took veterinary advice well, listened, or farmers. Saw saw a few healthy happy litters from these go onto to be sold and make happy healthy dogs.

'Professional' breeders - I'm sure some good ones exist, I just haven't met any.

Always trying to get reductions in cost of vaccinations, reduced cost elective C-sections, trying to pin people down to numbers of pups, but quibbling over paying for anything. I don't know which clinics take these people on, or in what circles these breeders mix, but it's all about yield and minimising cost. The nature of pregnancy and reproduction mean low cost and successful rarely go hand in hand, and just leads to unnecessary misery.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Bob Russell — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 14:46:08 GMT

Our local fertility centre was proud to show off their facilities. It was a 6 x 4 shed with a lino floor. There was a pharmacy fridge there!

The RCVS cannot do anything directly but are likely to be involved on an advisory basis. Some of the actions of these people are criminal and it seems to be a mix of trading standards and the Police taking action.

If things are the same as last lock down the Police will be a bit busy 'hounding' dog walkers out on the forest to make sure they are following the rules!!

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Clive Ansell — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 14:19:32 GMT

As an aside, but on a much related theme, has anyone read the latest VDS newsletter.

A case where a claim was made against a practice for £60,000. Bulldog belonging to a breeder; firstly the vet who ultrasound scanned for pregnancy refused (Correctly) to give a number of puppies, then later an OOH on duty vet advised the dog be seen because of being in labour -owners declined because they are experienced breeders and knew better. Later needed an emergency c-section, 6 dead puppies and had to be speyed. Breeder blames the vet.

The VDS did what they do well, and the case was blown out of the water of course, but it demonstrates what sh1te some of these people are.

One of my regular practices has the right approach - they don't get taken on as clients, or if already registered get shown the door PDQ. The local low cost clinics can be useful at times

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Iain Richards — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 13:00:26 GMT

What planning consent is needed for such places? There will have to be some

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Iain Richards — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 12:59:47 GMT

Indeed not vet prctices. However the changes could make it misconduct to work in a non-registered practice or to ensure that anyone offering anyform of animal health care had to be registerd with a new body.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Clive Ansell — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 12:22:21 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226469#226469"]RCVS can't do anything against them.[/quote]

The RCVS has jurisdiction over its members only, so are powerless to do anything at all unless the clinic is owned or employs M'sRCVS.

Same is true for most of the veterinary corporates, where senior managers and executives are not M'sRCVS. In fact I have had a Medivet senior manager laugh and sneer at me, and just say "the RCVS can't touch me can they?"

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Julie Innes — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 11:58:31 GMT

Interesting! We have one opening up here, specialising in bulldogs. Owner is a known criminal and drug dealer, who has also been charged with running an unauthorised puppy farm. The dogs he produces are horrendous! He is opening his new sparkly "vet" clinic soon. I have heard he has chandaliers in the consulting rooms, but no word of who his vet is.

There is obviously a gap in the market for people who want to pay to hear what they want to hear, and not take sensible advice on breeding, so doubt those clients would be interested in anything we would tell them.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 11:48:07 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226468#226468"]It's one of the things that could be controlled by the collge being able to control the practice, not just the individual.[/quote]

It is not. These places are not registered veterinary practices and the college would have no control over them.

RCVS can't do anything against them. However, BVA could if interested. In order to protect the profession they could start a campaign of investigating and reporting these clinics to Trading Standards if they weren't busy making pointless regular webinars about Covid.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Iain Richards — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 11:30:30 GMT

Trading Standards woul d be useful. Most of these are pretty shabby outfits promoting brachy type creatures and they operate on teh fringes of what is legal. It's one of the things that could be controlled by the collge being able to control the practice, not just the individual.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Dinu Catilina — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 10:38:38 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care/226449#226449"]There is clearly a demand for these fertility and reproductive services. I do have to wonder is there is an ethical way they can be provided by interested vets either as a stand alone business or part of an established practice.[/quote]

Yes it is. Currently there are about 6 in the UK ( Hector and Angelika down south, Karen in Wales, us and Paragon referrals midway and Linda Mylne in Scotland) so there is massive gap in the market. Gap filled by the so called fertility clinics.

UK has the largest dog population in Europe but the smaller amount of reproduction vets. A lost opportunity to be involved and educate and have some control.

Look at this map:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?ll=49.41879302532178%2C9.060508062720576&z=6&mid=1oXKQGLuXT_szLvbBToUSjTtyi_M

[quote userid="18277" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29469/fertility-clinic-and-veterinary-care"]Am I being too skeptical and presuming the worst of innocent colleagues or are these crooks that seem to think they have no reason to hide? [/quote]

No you are not. These clinics do not have a vet on site and many of them are crooks misusing and abusing all sorts of "fertility" drugs and antibiotics.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Bob Russell — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 10:25:13 GMT

There is a company on the south coast that runs courses for any Tom, Dick or Harry which fully equips them as experts in a weekend.

I am led to believe they learn to take blood samples. No veterinary experience or qualifications required!!

The training place used to have a picture of a very smart, advanced fertility clinic. No indication anywhere that this was a picture of a human fertility laboratory in Italy. That seems to have gone from their website at least.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 10:08:01 GMT

We have one near us that used to just to sperm testing and scanning, but has now ventured in to premate testing etc. For all my efforts I cannot find out if they are associated with a vet or have an MRCVS involved on site as their website is just not clear at all.

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Bob Russell — Thu, 05 Nov 2020 09:51:04 GMT

These are widespread and the demand is there because they are cheap and scanners will tell the breeder how many puppies are there (often wrong),

The RCVS and trading standards got involved with one around here but very quickly were unable to keep me informed of actions being taken!!

RE: Fertility clinic and veterinary care

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 04 Nov 2020 21:09:48 GMT

There is clearly a demand for these fertility and reproductive services. I do have to wonder is there is an ethical way they can be provided by interested vets either as a stand alone business or part of an established practice.

Lots of farm practices doing assisted reproduction.

Are these people just exploiting a gap in the market?