Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Julian Earl — Sat, 24 Oct 2020 15:12:43 GMT

The only solution to a problem like this is communication . Got o them for a sit-down discussion about your concerns and fears for the future. Preferably with a written list for them at the end of it on which they can reflect and make suitable decisions. I never worked in Corporate so do not know how easy or otherwise this might be to arrange, but one way or another it has to be talked through.

HTH?

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Yantha Smyth — Sat, 24 Oct 2020 12:09:22 GMT

Wow, what an awful situation to be in. Like Stephen says it is sad that you seem to have more loyalty than the former owners in finding a workable solution.

It may be that you do have to give up the OOH- but I suspect it would be a permanent change in spite of intentions. It also doesn't solve the issue of being severely understaffed for the client base. It does present its own issues- the transfer of patients, the change in approach to management of cases, the break in continuity of care...but the effect wouldn't be as profound if you were at least able to hold onto an in-patient care element, supported perhaps by the nursing team- this would at least allow you to provide continuity to existing cases.

Some practices hand over their OOH at 10pm for overnight rather than at closing, which may be a compromise that is accepted better by the clients, but allows respite for the remaining vets.

I expect recruitment may be easier without an OOH rota, and its hard to see how you could attract applicants with a vague idea of rota expected, and with the team in pieces.

This may be a stupid suggestion and not be workable, but another thought which you may have already considered and discounted: from what you describe there are 7 vets, but not all contribute to OOH, and some that do contribute to OOH are leaving soon.

-If there are still 3 of you to do OOH, while the 3rd works out their 3m notice; each do a week of nights only, followed by a week off/admin only to adjust, then a week of days on a 3 week rolling rota

-get two locums for day work only (increasing your chances of securing locums, can you provide accommodation?) for at least 3 months

-the other permanent vets that do no OOH carry on with days and share of weekend days, and the locums carry the day load of the OOH vets that are on their 'night week' or 'off week' to compensate

-it may not be busy enough OOH for this to be a financially sustainable option long term, but it would ease the burden on you remaining 3, while holding onto the OOH for the practice, while not leaving the day team any shorter

Another factor is the looming issue with locums in the coming months: it looks like some if not all corporates are going to take a stance of excluding Ltd Co and Sole Trader locums entirely, which could mean even less locums are available than there are currently to help plug those gaps while you rebuild the team.

Best of luck and please look after yourself

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Jill Butterworth — Sat, 24 Oct 2020 10:43:57 GMT

I think you really need to get over your resistance to OOH cover. It transformed my life, I would never have gone back to it. I understand where you are coming from, but look around you and see what it is doing to your practice.

A friend of mine has just had to finally give in and start using an OOH practice after years of resistance as she believed in it, like you. She got on line abuse after the announcement, but it was killing everyone to continue. She made the right decision.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Stephen Courtney — Sat, 24 Oct 2020 10:41:41 GMT

You seem like a really decent person and the kind of vet we should all want to be. I this sad that you have more loyalty to the practice and the clients than the former owners who were presumably well paid and and are now showing no interest

please remember to look after yourself because no one else will

also once you ditch the OOH there will be no going back.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

An On MRCVS — Sat, 24 Oct 2020 01:36:07 GMT

Thanks for all the advice, another query if I may...

We are currently looking at getting one of the OOH providers to take over our OOH on a temporary basis, another vet has handed in their notice so now there will only be 2 of us who do OOH left by Xmas time. A 1 in 2 rota is not survivable without burnout, our OOH is generally pretty busy, a lot of advice calls & currently it is rare not to get called in at least once on a night on call (hence I'm typing this reply at nearly 2.30am at the surgery waiting for an emergency!)

I am one of those rare oddities who likes to keep OOH within the practice, I've been doing OOH for 20+yrs & like to know that my clients are going somewhere familiar in a crisis. I've never worked with a separate OOH service, I've never transported in-patients further than between surgeries for overnight care. I think our on call service is an important part of the service to our clients. It is suggested by the remaining management team that this will be a brief hiatus to give us breathing room while we recruit but I am suspicious that once the practice has got used to evenings at home & free weekends it is unlikely that OOH will be welcomed back (who knows I may eventually agree). I'm not sure that anyone who joins while we are free from on call will want to stick around when OOH returns, or will take on a role with an unknown future duty rota? Has anyone seen a practice suspend & then bring back overnight duties?

I like my practice, I like my team, I have a bad feeling that if myself or my other remaining colleague quits then that'll be the final nail in the coffin for the practice & I rather feel the responsibility to the team. Although the thought of walking away & setting up my own practice does appeal I don't have the finances & I definitely don't have the organisational skills to make that a success! (There is a good reason why I didn't apply for our unfilled clinical director role!!) I really want to help turn things around, there are a number of others equally committed, but some elements are beyond our control and we're aware we need to protect ourselves while doing this

Thanks

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

An On MRCVS — Sat, 24 Oct 2020 01:17:49 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226157#226157"]Yes. The regulations stipulate a 48 hour working week. One can opt out, but can opt back in again at anytime without having to give a reason. [/quote]

I considered this as an option I think one of the employment pages said you can opt back in again with a week's notice but I checked my contract and it says that I must give 3mths notice for opting back into working time regulations, that is the same as my notice period for leaving

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Clive Ansell — Fri, 23 Oct 2020 18:49:40 GMT

[quote userid="2185" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226057#226057"]Can you use working time regulations?[/quote]

Yes. The regulations stipulate a 48 hour working week. One can opt out, but can opt back in again at anytime without having to give a reason.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Utlendigur — Tue, 20 Oct 2020 11:38:41 GMT

I would say that even if you don't want to walk away, it may be the best thing to do. I have been in a similar position years ago where at one point I came back from holiday to find I was on my own in what should have been a 4 vet practice (one vet left, another off with stress and the boss still disappeared on his holiday), followed 9-10 months of severe understaffing and worse rota. I stayed out of loyalty to colleagues and clients, and also you just get so exhausted that you don't have the time/energy to think about leaving. It makes mistakes more likely, and stress of worrying about making mistakes increases. You feel you cannot do the job well because you are constantly under so much pressure so you lose confidence. Staffing improved eventually but a lot of the underlying problems remained, which sounds likely to happen in your case too unless the leadership/management vacuum is filled, and at times I was still doing periods of working 80-90hrs a week not inc on-call. Staying put was the stupidest decision I made and very nearly turned me into another vet statistic. Leaving, the stress, illness, exhaustion vanished immediately.

Otherwise definitely get legal advice. Can you use working time regulations? You can opt out of the 48hr/week limit and you are legally entitled to breaks. The corporate is your employer and they have a duty of care to their staff. Can you stop taking on any new clients, except as emergencies?

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

grumpyoldman — Tue, 20 Oct 2020 10:44:49 GMT

I think EBH is right , basically if you have the skill set to make a lot of money quickly ,make it for yourself without the monkey on your back. They won't do or change anything until the bank accounts look grim . The former incumbents will be winding down ready to jump ship with the sellout swag. Many of the corporates are driven with venture capital and don't even look at quarterly management accounts if they have them done , and you can hide anything in COVID and Brexit it seems .

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 20 Oct 2020 00:35:27 GMT

Anon –

let me get this straight. You are now an employee of a company – but you don't know anybody there and you don't have any regular contact?

You are now running a 12-vet practice with 7 vets?

I would ask your employers for a substantial amount of money: a 100% increase on your present salary would seem fair.

If they won't cough up, do as Dinu suggests. Yes, it will be a little tough at first losing your present familiar surroundings, but the writing was on the wall when your practice got sold to the corporate and your boss took the money and ran.

I regret quite a lot of things in my life, but a main one is kidding myself to ignore the writing on the wall. Like when one of the two partners casually mentions, after you've been a week in a new job, that his son is graduating in a year and he expects him to join the practice immediately.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Clive Ansell — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:22:44 GMT

[quote userid="7269" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226043#226043"]I’m interested in how they do this vetting of clients Clive. We are really busy and getting lots of new clients too, predominantly from a local practice that has sold to a corporate. I’d be interested in what they do to assess the worthiness of a new client, it is often a concern to take in new clients with no idea of their ability to pay, especially as we do equine and small animals so not all paid at the time. [/quote]

I think it is based on a gut feeling more than anything else. Seems to work well, they have great clients. they must have a nose for it.

If a new clients approaches the practice, firstly a history is obtained from previous vet(s) and viewed by the practice owner or RVN practice manager of 30+ years; bad debtors, troublesome clients, large aggressive dogs, floating clients, those shopping round for cheap treatment, and breeders are not welcome and are declined. New clients are made aware of a few ground rules; payment is strictly at the time of treatment, no credit or payment plans; no elective c-sections.

The fees are high end of the range, and there are many low cost providers locally, which tends to help too.

There does seem to be a steady and increasing number of clients coming away from the local corporate and franchise practices, looking for better pet and client care. As I say, they've never been as busy.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:07:02 GMT

“The practice I work for vets all potential new clients, and if they seem unsuitable they are not taken - nice to be able to pick and choose who you take on”

Sorry I’ve quoted Clive but can’t work out how to insert it in my post. I’m interested in how they do this vetting of clients Clive. We are really busy and getting lots of new clients too, predominantly from a local practice that has sold to a corporate. I’d be interested in what they do to assess the worthiness of a new client, it is often a concern to take in new clients with no idea of their ability to pay, especially as we do equine and small animals so not all paid at the time.

I wonder if anon is in a mixed practice with doing their own ooh, but the work rota doesn’t sound sustainable. Doing 1 in 3 to cover a 3 vet practice isn’t nearly as hard as 1in 3 for a 12 vet practice!

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Sarah Keir — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:32:14 GMT

I agree, but head office sees the numbers not the people. This adds to the recruitment catastrophe that is occurring in some segments of the profession.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Clive Ansell — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:00:35 GMT

[quote userid="9515" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226030#226030"]Of course the practice is profitable - the work of 12 vets is now being done by 7 and the biggest bill in any vet practice is the salary bill.[/quote]

But it would not be sustainable in the long term. staff will either leave (As they are doing), morale will plummet (As it is doing), and those remaining will either burn out, become ill, or leave.

Working on such a tightrope - what happens when someone is off ill, takes holiday, or has to isolate at short notice because of covid?

Why not do less work>. 7 vets should do the work of 7 vets.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Clive Ansell — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:56:40 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226027#226027"]Perfect timing for you to leave and set up in the same town your own practice :) [/quote]

Yes, maybe the time is ripe for those so inclined to set up on their own?

Two independent practices near to me, one I work for and know very well, seem to be doing very well; they are snowed under with work, good work, with decent clients. They both work to a good standard and charge good money for what they do. Both have staff that have been there for years, one RVN has just celebrated 30 years service at the practice. Both are getting a steady stream of second opinions and clients from the local corporates, who are dissatisfied with the service they receive. The practice I work for vets all potential new clients, and if they seem unsuitable they are not taken - nice to be able to pick and choose who you take on to the books.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Sarah Keir — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:52:13 GMT

[quote userid="10402" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets"]we're apparently still really profitable[/quote]

Of course the practice is profitable - the work of 12 vets is now being done by 7 and the biggest bill in any vet practice is the salary bill.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Clive Ansell — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:47:08 GMT

Must be very difficult and frustrating without effective management and leadership.

[quote userid="10402" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets"]We have been taken over by a corporate & our previous bosses/clinical directors have now handed their notice in & so will be going soon[/quote]

Why are they leaving?

[quote userid="10402" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets"]can they expect us to step into the breach & switch to a 1 in 3 rota if we can't get locums.[/quote]

Not really. what is your current rota OOH? I did a 1 in 3 OOH rota for 3 years, and will NEVER do it again - not under any circumstance.

[quote userid="10402" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets"]We have struggling to recruit & locums to add to our team are very scarce.[/quote]

Many locums won't do OOH, I don't. I don't take positions that involve OOH if I cannot be excluded from it.

Can the OOH be dropped?, are you close enough to an OOH provider ? are you a hospital status practice?

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:04:51 GMT

[quote userid="10402" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226022#226022"]Unfortunately the corporate team don't know us on the ground to know that we are valuable staff members to try to retain us. I'm not sure how motivated they are to try to keep us. Don't feel particularly valued at the moment, there has been little attempt to dissuade those who have handed in their notice [/quote]

Perfect timing for you to leave and set up in the same town your own practice :)

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:17:02 GMT

[quote userid="7269" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226020#226020"]I would imagine the corporates must have some sort of area management in place, I think you need to find out who this is and directly contact them. [/quote]

In my limited experience, area managers can be part of the problem rather than the solution. If they aren't already concerned about the situation (which they should be) I'd be going above their head.

[quote userid="10402" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226021#226021"]For some reason they elected against appointing anyone "because the current situation with Covid19 made it unfair to appoint new CDs" or something along those limes[/quote]

To be fair, taking a CD role at the moment would be unfair ... It would be a baptism of fire. They would need a lot of support. However, as you say, someone has to undertake their duties so this needs to be openly discussed!

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Freya . — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:04:01 GMT

Would it be worth those of you remaining offering the corporate some options as you suggest, closing branches, loosing oohs cover, paying emergency locum rates until team can be stabalised? Explaining that if not you'll all be forced to leave as current system not sustainable. I would imagine that a significant change in rota would still be a change of contract even if wording is vague.

Best of luck, strikes me covid situation means a good cd is more rather than less important.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

An On MRCVS — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:37:02 GMT

BVA legal team is my next port of call for advice

Unfortunately the corporate team don't know us on the ground to know that we are valuable staff members to try to retain us. I'm not sure how motivated they are to try to keep us. Don't feel particularly valued at the moment, there has been little attempt to dissuade those who have handed in their notice

We think the expectation is that the head nurse (who was refused a CD role) & the practice manager (who has come from a non-vet business environment) are expected to take on the CD duties

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

An On MRCVS — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 22:30:50 GMT

We've had interviews for new CDs, several good candidates from within the practice & apparently some from outside. For some reason they elected against appointing anyone "because the current situation with Covid19 made it unfair to appoint new CDs" or something along those limes

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Joyce Whitehead — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 21:54:51 GMT

I would imagine the corporates must have some sort of area management in place, I think you need to find out who this is and directly contact them. Could you become a CD if you’ve been there many years? I’m speaking from a relatively ignorant POV. as we are independent and I’ve never worked for a corporate, but it must be in their interests to encourage existing staff to stay.

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 21:43:32 GMT

[quote userid="4256" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29425/dramatic-rota-changes-due-to-loss-of-vets/226018#226018"]Are your current CDs seriously just going to walk away without setting up anything in place? [/quote]

They are employees. They can leave their job, same as everyone else can. I don't think any blame or responsibility can be laid at their door.

If recruitment is proving so difficult, then I can't see any other way than to look at what is being offered in terms of salary and rota. Doing your own OOH is bound to be part of the issue, but if salary and time off is adequate then it won't be the deal breaker.

As far as your own situation, I doubt you can be expected to do the job of 4 vets but you'd be best getting proper advice from.an employment lawyer...are you a BVA member?

You say you have no contact with the 'corporate entity' but if possible do open the channels of communication with the HR department. Most corporates are desperate to hold onto their talented experienced staff so just make sure there isn't an incompetent middle manager standing in the way!

RE: Dramatic rota changes due to loss of vets

Stephen Courtney — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 21:33:09 GMT

Are your current CDs seriously just going to walk away without setting up anything in place? Sounds shocking to me - who will sort rota, sort Locum, sort all the things that need sorting that CDs are supposed to do?
if the answer is no one, I’d be handing my notice in and I would not accept an increased OOH burden either

You need to discuss this with your CDs before they leave , I think