Important announcement

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 08:41:41 GMT

[quote userid="9147" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225389#225389"]NEVER appolgise for advertising.[/quote]

I'm not! Actually, I think that if I was a vet or a nurse myself, I would actually like to see the sort of advertising we carry here. Sure, there'll be some stuff that everyone is very familiar with, but also new stuff that you won't have known about.

[quote userid="9147" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225389#225389"]Yours is up-front and clear it is what it is.[/quote]

Indeed. We don't target anyone beyond ... 'this is a website for vets, so here are some vetty adverts'! And we have certainly never given or sold anyone's data to anyone else. Not that we have much. Just registration details.

RE: Important announcement

Robert FalconerTaylor — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 08:32:58 GMT

NEVER appolgise for advertising. Always makes me laugh that folks believe social media is free, they seem to have no idea that they are being fleeced hand-over-foot indirectly as the SM companies rake in £££££££££ selling their personal data for targeted advertising. Yours is up-front and clear it is what it is.

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 12 Sep 2020 08:09:07 GMT

Another quick update for everyone .... and the reason I've been lying low for a few days ... which is that before embarking on the mission to get the word out about expert forums, and why any professional who uses facebook is an oxymoron ( - joking!), I needed to upgrade our advertising system, which means setting up a completely new one, installing all the code, then testing that adverts all work OK, and then migrating all the ads from the old system to the new one.

Now I know advertising can be a somewhat dirty word, BUT bear in mind that there will be no substantial change to the position of adverts on VetSurgeon - one at the top of the page, 3-4 in the right margin and one at the foot.

But the new system does bring the following important advantages:

Pages will be quicker to load, especially on mobile phone.
Adverts will be visually optimised for mobile phone (that is to say we will no longer just shrink them, there will be a different version specifically designed for mobile.
The new format will allow us and advertisers to create more interesting stuff. For example, I am now looking into how we can embed a youtube video (which might be me explaining how something works) into an advert on the page.
There will new format which allows me to overlay an advert on the whole page - which will only be used (very sparingly and usually only by me) for announcements of the greatest importance. For example, if I want to make sure EVERYONE knows about the expert help forums.

I'm expecting to switch over to the new system next week. Then I'll start developing / deploying stuff to advertise VetSurgeon benefits to existing members.

RE: Important announcement

Bob Russell — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 17:02:09 GMT

"Rely on expertise, not just anecdote!"

Nothing wrong with harping on about anecdote, it is not good medicine. Sometimes though it is all we have.

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 16:33:31 GMT

[quote userid="6297" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225311#225311"]I'm not sure that this is right. A properly conducted trial will tell you a huge amount, but it doesn't tell you whether something will work in an individual patient.[/quote]

Of course, with hindsight that is so blindingly obvious (ie the necessity of patient feedback to tell you whether your treatment is working). But further complicates things because how on earth do medical professionals ignore the anecdotal feedback (outside the context of the decision as to whether to continue a treatment or pursue another avenue in that one specific patient)? Surely it's impossible to ignore. And given that is the case, it's even more deluded of me to keep harping on about anecdote ...

RE: Important announcement

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 14:00:33 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225303#225303"]Every time, people (including doctors) ask me for my opinion of how effective x treatment was. Every time, I think: I shouldn't tell you, because my anecdotal opinion is not only not valid, it is dangerous. Why? Because you will be influenced by what I report, and what I report outside a double blind placebo controlled trial is frankly irrelevant.[/quote]

I'm not sure that this is right. A properly conducted trial will tell you a huge amount, but it doesn't tell you whether something will work in an individual patient. A double blind placebo controlled trial might tell you that a medicine has a 99% chance of working, but the patient might be in that 1% it doesn't work for. I get that it is much more challenging in a condition that naturally waxes and wanes, but individual feedback is important.

RE: Important announcement

Bob Russell — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:37:30 GMT

I don't think you appreciate how limited evidence based medicine is in veterinary practice. We have always used anecdotal 'evidence' but had to interpret it based on our experiences.

It can prove to be dangerous but so can licenced drugs with very limited clinical date.

I agree that the medics are usually fairly good identifying limitations but not as good as us old cynical vets!!

Rephrase: You do appreciate the limited evidence (working previously for a pharmaceutical company!!!)

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 11:08:14 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225308#225308"]

Anecdotes openly discussed between professionals on a closed site can be valuable.

Anecdotes on public social media rapidly become hysteria. Anti-vax being a noticeable example.

[/quote]

Sucks teeth!

I agree, professionals are less likely to become hysterical. But I simply do not agree with you that anecdote is fine as long as you are a professional! I've certainly seen examples of false non-clinical anecdotes whistling around veterinary groups before. And I have spoken to enough doctors to know they are over influenced by anecdote.

I DO think most medical professionals probably are better at recognising the limitations of anecdote than the general public, but they are certainly not immune to its influential effect, not by a long chalk.

RE: Important announcement

Bob Russell — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:51:10 GMT

Anecdotes openly discussed between professionals on a closed site can be valuable.

Anecdotes on public social media rapidly become hysteria. Anti-vax being a noticeable example.

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 10:09:26 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225304#225304"]Many of the discussions on VV are just as valid as they are on here. Many give fair advice, plenty good advice.[/quote]

Which is really what I was talking about earlier in this thread when I said that what I say needs to be believable, to resonate. What you've said is, I think, the perception, so it really doesn't matter whether I am right or wrong about confirmation bias, me banging on about it won't wash!

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225304#225304"]Make a thing of the experts part of this site. It really is a big benefit. Make a big thing about the indexing and availability of the search facility.[/quote]

That, I think, is the inevitable conclusion. And it is certainly my starting point. I must say, the expert forums are something I feel really good about whenever I read fresh posts there. They're expert, they're focussed, they're easy to find, they're friendly, and they are less vulnerable to confirmation bias.

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225306#225306"]I think your aims are admirable, and of course you are correct that we should aim to have the highest standards of evidence for everything that we do. Sadly this is a long way removed from the real world, and I believe it will always be so in our small disparate profession.[/quote]

Rob, I'm not sure I'm I live on such a different planet as perhaps my evangelical anecdote-hating posts may suggest. I do see there is a place for it, particularly when there is a lack of better quality evidence. But I think one has to be so careful about how it is shared and the context, and I do think sharing anecdote on FB is very problematic.

Anyway, stage one is now very much about getting the word out there about the expert forums and the ease of following discussions and finding info on VS

RE: Important announcement

Rob Davis — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 09:17:04 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225303#225303"]I thought you might say that. And yes, I know the evidence base is low. But let me explain my thinking. [/quote]

etc

I think your aims are admirable, and of course you are correct that we should aim to have the highest standards of evidence for everything that we do. Sadly this is a long way removed from the real world, and I believe it will always be so in our small disparate profession.

If you want to improve the evidence base then maybe vetsurgeon could become a platform for collating evidence. Perhaps a hub for practice-based research projects, collating evidence from multiple practices and publishing data for all to see.

RE: Important announcement

Bob Russell — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 09:05:41 GMT

I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my previous answer!

Many of the discussions on VV are just as valid as they are on here. Many give fair advice, plenty good advice.

Make a thing of the experts part of this site. It really is a big benefit. Make a big thing about the indexing and availability of the search facility.

When you see a specialist on VV why not head hunt them?

This profession is based around experience and sometimes this is anecdotal. It does not make it useless.

Slagging off others never works well IMO. A sound argument does.

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 03:58:02 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225301#225301"]Now you're being silly.[/quote]

I thought you might say that. And yes, I know the evidence base is low. But let me explain my thinking.

It's based on my experience of observing the effect of treatment on my daughter for decades. Every time, people (including doctors) ask me for my opinion of how effective x treatment was. Every time, I think: I shouldn't tell you, because my anecdotal opinion is not only not valid, it is dangerous. Why? Because you will be influenced by what I report, and what I report outside a double blind placebo controlled trial is frankly irrelevant. Recently, this happened most notably with CBD, which by the time people had finished sharing the anecdote, you would have thought was the wonder drug of the 21st century, when the truth is that it is far from that.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225301#225301"]Each of our individual experiences are valid [/quote]

That's where I profoundly disagree.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225301#225301"]and when people share experiences and compare them that helps to protect us all against confirmation bias.[/quote]

Again, I disagree. How on earth does sharing protect from confirmation bias? Millions of people (doctors included) shared anecdote about homeopathy and it didn't protect them. More recently, my own neurologist remarked on how she felt that doctors were giving CBD more credit than it deserves. I would think that with confirmation bias, people (inc vets and doctors) are going to read people reporting of success with a drug, and confirmation bias means that if it supports their own preconceived bias, they are going to select and post info that agrees.

So in summary, sure, I get the problem with the lack of evidence based medicine. Based on my own experience, I profoundly disagree with the value of anecdote, other than it being something useful for identifying areas of further research.

Still, even if I am right (and I am not entirely sure of that, I would love to know what Niall Taylor thinks), I do see that it would be a tough sell, so then I am back to a point that I made earlier. Which is that if I am going to use knocking copy, it needs to be something people will believe. And what you are all saying so far is that in the comparison between VetSurgeon and Facebook, the only two real advantages of VS are that a) info/discussions are much easier to follow, and b) the platform (or perhaps the device on which it tends to be used), lends itself to a more considered, better reasoned discussion.

As Bob pointed out earlier, some experts participate on Facebook too, although they certainly don't get any real proper credit/attribution, and the way the expert forums are going on VetSurgeon, I do believe we are heading in the right direction to become known as the place to come for expert opinion.

In conclusion, if you think it is OK to share anecdote, then Facebook is fine, and my argument is considerably weakened. All I can do is try and promote VetSurgeon as a place for more considered thought and expert opinion, which is not a bad thing, and I now think where I should start with advertising.

RE: Important announcement

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 08 Sep 2020 01:45:24 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225298#225298"]Do not share medical anecdote online.
Social media amplifies opinions and information shared online and lends anecdote a level of importance which it does not deserve.[/quote]

Now you're being silly. The nature of veterinary medicine means we have very few treatments with a huge evidence base behind them. Each of our individual experiences are valid and when people share experiences and compare them that helps to protect us all against confirmation bias. When you're back's against the wall with an awkward case - I'm happy to hear how people anecdotally got on. I frequently say to our assistants "I have no great evidence base to support this, but X seems to help in these cases".

If you want a great example go and ask what the 'best' treatment is for cruciate disease in dogs (if you find a large sample size, truly randomised study not done entirely in a referral setting with a vested interest then let me know).........

Or if you're playing the evidenced based medicine game, check that the entire profession is in favour of docking working spaniels, because a couple of big studies support it.......

The British Association of Homeopathic Veterinary Surgeons lists 41 vets in their directory despite the COC saying we should "critically analysing the evidence base for procedures used and making appropriate changes to practice".......

Lets share the anecdote, debate it and come to our own conclusions. Evidence based medicine still allows for fitting of the best evidence to the patient and the situation.

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:15:54 GMT

[quote userid="3607" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225297#225297"]I think that you are confining yourself with the erroneous assumption that if a product is of a higher quality, then it will inevitably be more popular.[/quote]

I'm really not Malcolm! I can think of lots of examples in history where that was true. Betamax anyone?

[quote userid="3607" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225297#225297"]We live in an age where many proclaim the right to an opinion while shirking any responsibility to fashion opinions that are intelligent and informed: Facebook is their platform.[/quote]

That sounds quite critical, and I feel less so. I wouldn't say people proclaim a right, just that they have been given the platform and use it. Why not? We're a gregarious species that likes to interact with each other.

The problem is that people don't fully appreciate the importance of making sure that info they share is accurate and opinion is well informed. And the service providers, who certainly DO realise the importance, have no financial incentive to demand accuracy or police it. I suspect it would be an impossible task. But they also do NOTHING to educate people.

Plus as a number of posters have commented, there is the device you use to access social media. A mobile phone is fine when you want to know what time everyone's meeting in the boozer. It is utterly hopeless when you are trying to have a discussion about some complex matter which needs to you search for information, references etc.

Maybe therein lies the answer. An advertising campaign which highlights best practice when it comes to online conduct, some of which plays to the strengths of vetsurgeon.org.

Let me give you an example of what I think would be best practice for medical professionals:

1. Do not share medical anecdote online.
Social media amplifies opinions and information shared online and lends anecdote a level of importance which it does not deserve. Social media also lends itself to confirmation bias, where we select information which supports our preconceived beliefs and reject that which contradicts. Do not think for one second that as a trained veterinary professional, you are immune. You are not. And don't be fooled into thinking that the plural of anecdote is evidence. On the contrary, it is highly likely that the metoo replies all agreeing to the answer to a medical question on Facebook merely reflect confirmation bias at play.

VetSurgeon.org. Promoting the highest standard of online clinical discussion.

(just thoughts).

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225295#225295"]Be very careful with this - all Facebook postings have and individual associated with them....[/quote]

I wasn't planning on referring to a specific post, just alluding to more general examples.

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225295#225295"] find writing anything other than a brief message on a phone very difficult - I can touch type proficiently, but I have not developed the thumb speed exhibited by teenagers who have grown up with smart phones! I will often formulate replies over a short period so I can check and edit before posting and it is often useful to have other windows open for checking facts, references etc. All this is much easier on a desktop or laptop than it is on a phone. I also find looking at photos or radiographs much more difficult on a small phone screen.[/quote]

I don't think it is possible to have a proper written discussion about a complex issue on a small device. I don't see how that can ever change.

RE: Important announcement

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 07 Sep 2020 14:15:22 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225293#225293"]I keep going backwards and forwards between pushing the positives about VetSurgeon, vs knocking copy[/quote]

I think that you are confining yourself with the erroneous assumption that if a product is of a higher quality, then it will inevitably be more popular. We live in an age where many proclaim the right to an opinion while shirking any responsibility to fashion opinions that are intelligent and informed: Facebook is their platform.

RE: Important announcement

Rob Davis — Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:39:41 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225293#225293"]On that line of thinking, maybe just a series of examples of dodgy stuff posted on Facebook which then asks the question of whether this is really a platform befitting the veterinary profession. [/quote]

Be very careful with this - all Facebook postings have and individual associated with them....

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225290#225290"]When you say you much prefer to use a computer, you mean you much prefer to use a computer than a phone for this website specifically? If so, then why? Genuinely curious, because I've invested a lot in making VS work on mobile. I too prefer to use it on desktop, but in my case, that is true of all websites and also because I sit at a desktop all day. On those days when I'm out and about, I've found VS forums just as easy to type into as FB.[/quote]

I find writing anything other than a brief message on a phone very difficult - I can touch type proficiently, but I have not developed the thumb speed exhibited by teenagers who have grown up with smart phones! I will often formulate replies over a short period so I can check and edit before posting and it is often useful to have other windows open for checking facts, references etc. All this is much easier on a desktop or laptop than it is on a phone. I also find looking at photos or radiographs much more difficult on a small phone screen.

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:39:04 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225292#225292"]Might it be that we use our clinical head on a PC along with our practice management system, full Google searches, writing and researching cases, clinical notes, claiming CPD etc ? [/quote]

Might what be?

You mean the higher quality of post on desktop?

I'm sure that is true. When you're out and about, using a mobile, likely to spend much if any time looking around for stuff to support a post (even to the extent of a proper google search, let alone trying to find a paper you saved somewhere).

Some people might even call that lack of attention to detail: 'lazy' (Bob Russell!!!).

I dunno - I keep going backwards and forwards between pushing the positives about VetSurgeon, vs knocking copy. Problem is that I think we need something stronger than just saying it's jolly nice over here. I think on balance it a bit of knocking IS needed, but I need to be careful to make sure that veterinary professionals understand I am not knocking them, I am knocking the weaknesses of Facebook.

On that line of thinking, maybe just a series of examples of dodgy stuff posted on Facebook which then asks the question of whether this is really a platform befitting the veterinary profession.

RE: Important announcement

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:14:35 GMT

Might it be that we use our clinical head on a PC along with our practice management system, full Google searches, writing and researching cases, clinical notes, claiming CPD etc ?

RE: Important announcement

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 07 Sep 2020 08:44:15 GMT

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225274#225274"]Maybe a large proportion of the target (?younger) audience will be using their phone for everything. I know you have made great improvements to the way vetsurgeon appears on a phone, but I still much prefer to use a computer. Maybe this is why old farts like me prefer vetsurgeon while younger folk find it hard to tear themselves away from facebook (although according to my children (18-22) facebook is passe and only for old fogies....)[/quote]

When you say you much prefer to use a computer, you mean you much prefer to use a computer than a phone for this website specifically? If so, then why? Genuinely curious, because I've invested a lot in making VS work on mobile. I too prefer to use it on desktop, but in my case, that is true of all websites and also because I sit at a desktop all day. On those days when I'm out and about, I've found VS forums just as easy to type into as FB.

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225275#225275"]

I am not keen on your Facebook slagging list.

There is a lot of good, informed stuff on there so to call it:

Opinion (I am trying to think of a word for unqualified opinion, or the opposite of 'expert opinion')
Opinionated
Echo-chamber
Unscientific
Unprofessional
Lazy

is just wrong. If it was those things people would not be using it as they are.

[/quote]

Bob Russell I feel like I've had my knuckles rapped!

I do agree with you that many people find knocking copy unappealing. That doesn't of course mean they don't respond in the way we want them to. In other words, I can be told something and not like it, but recognise it is right.

What I meant by opinion and opinionated and echo chamber and unscientific is the fact that hardly ANY opinion expressed on facebook has any provenance, unless posted by someone very well known (like Kit), and Facebook actively encourages confirmation bias and anecdote. But as Rob Davis said earlier, everyone likes to think they are immune to confirmation bias, so it is a difficult message sell.

So actually, I disagree with you (sorry). You may be right, the accessibility of info is a downside, but the lack of accountability, the proliferation of anecdote and the obvious confirmation bias are what I think are far greater failures of Facebook.

Incidentally, it is interesting that you defend Facebook. Maybe the problem is that you see my adjectives as attacking the veterinary groups/vets on facebook, and I need to be clearer that I am attacking Facebook itself as a medium for scientific discourse. As Sir Tim Berners Lee has also done.

[quote userid="11232" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225280#225280"]Yep I use my phone and have a link to ‘new posts’ that I go straight to in order to have a scroll through and I never remember to click across to the expert help ones... any chance of running everything under one banner so people see both?[/quote]

Possibly. My original idea was to keep the Expert Forums more distinct, mainly because discussions in the open forums had sometimes become a bit heated, or circular or repetitive.

But I think the quality in the main forums has improved and I am weeding out non clinical forums, so maybe they can be put in the same list, but they would need colour coding.

It won't happen immediately, but maybe in the not-too-distant future.

RE: Important announcement

Emily Rainbow — Sun, 06 Sep 2020 06:33:22 GMT

Yep I use my phone and have a link to ‘new posts’ that I go straight to in order to have a scroll through and I never remember to click across to the expert help ones... any chance of running everything under one banner so people see both?

RE: Important announcement

Rob Davis — Sat, 05 Sep 2020 11:28:04 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225275#225275"]is just wrong. If it was those things people would not be using it as they are. It sounds like sour grapes and would put me off rather than encourage me to try VS. I have little time for practices that slag off other practices for similar reasons. Encourage new visitors by being nice![/quote]

Fair point, though in my experience the quality and depth of advice and discussion is far superior on vetsurgeon.

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225275#225275"]downsides of VV are primarily caused by difficulties accessing information without asking the same questions over and over again.[/quote]

Quite - I agree that this is a crucial distinction. The searchability and durability of vetsurgeon discussions create a really useful resource. I commonly search for information I can half remember from previous threads, and this is very difficult to do on facebook.

RE: Important announcement

Bob Russell — Sat, 05 Sep 2020 10:10:00 GMT

I am not keen on your Facebook slagging list.

There is a lot of good, informed stuff on there so to call it:

Opinion (I am trying to think of a word for unqualified opinion, or the opposite of 'expert opinion')
Opinionated
Echo-chamber
Unscientific
Unprofessional
Lazy

is just wrong. If it was those things people would not be using it as they are. It sounds like sour grapes and would put me off rather than encourage me to try VS. I have little time for practices that slag off other practices for similar reasons. Encourage new visitors by being nice!

I did see Kit Sturgess giving opinions on VV so it is clear that it is none of the above much of the time.

I absolutely agree with your positives for VetSurgeon but the downsides of VV are primarily caused by difficulties accessing information without asking the same questions over and over again.

RE: Important announcement

Rob Davis — Sat, 05 Sep 2020 08:59:04 GMT

This may be a load of nonsense, so feel free to disregard.....

I pretty much only ever look at facebook on my phone and vetsurgeon on a computer. I wonder if this is part of the reason for the difference in quality between the two. On a phone one tends to scroll at speed bypassing most of the irrelevant crap, so something really has to grab your attention to make you stop and read. It is also much more difficult to write a longer, more considered response on a phone, everything tends to be more instantaneous and impulse-driven - short answers rattled off without much care or consideration. On vetsurgeon with a proper screen and keyboard, it is much more conducive to writing a more thorough and detailed response.

Maybe a large proportion of the target (?younger) audience will be using their phone for everything. I know you have made great improvements to the way vetsurgeon appears on a phone, but I still much prefer to use a computer. Maybe this is why old farts like me prefer vetsurgeon while younger folk find it hard to tear themselves away from facebook (although according to my children (18-22) facebook is passe and only for old fogies....)

RE: Important announcement

Julian Earl — Fri, 04 Sep 2020 19:34:32 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29321/important-announcement/225267#225267"]VetSurgeon
Expert opinion
Thought-provoking
Challenging
Professional
Ordered[/quote]

Excelent Arlo! I think that these factors cannot be over-emphasised. Especially the scientific and professional views expressed on here. Amateur opinions are generally not helpful! This is not a place for discussing matters like people do down at the pub for example!

Good luck with doing all this.