Have you experienced racism?

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 20:45:50 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225092#225092"]But you were referring to crud like Twitface and so on, weren't you. Break the habit, stop looking at them. [/quote]

Not necessarily. But your advice is good.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:08:26 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225072#225072"]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:
Who gives a toss about "social media" posts?

The irony.

[/quote]

One of your favourite answers.

I was asking for that. i guess even as I posted I knew I was asking for itt. Yeah, OK, vetsurgeon.org counts as a social medium.

But you were referring to crud like Twitface and so on, weren't you. Break the habit, stop looking at them.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Thomas Johnson — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 18:04:39 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225089#225089"]Obviously the Oxford and Cambridge universities are sitting on pots of money compared to many others.[/quote]

Can I correct this to 'some Oxford and Cambridge colleges are sitting on pots of money'. The older colleges tend to have extensive funds to draw on, the newer colleges tend to struggle a lot more.

As to the requirement for University of Cambridge students to live in Cambridge, I think it would be very difficult to commute in with long days of lectures and practicals, and often evening supervisions. For a three year course all of the colleges will guarantee accommodation and there are grants for those with limited means. Also the ethos of the college based system is living and studying in a community of people from different courses and departments.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 16:53:50 GMT

Cambridge has a long tradition of students living in university accommodation. It tends to be college related, not just university related.

Obviously the Oxford and Cambridge universities are sitting on pots of money compared to many others.

I was brought up in Cambridge and my father went to 'Johns' but I went to Edinburgh!

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Chris Geddes — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 14:48:04 GMT

Quite. I paid about £50/week for in-college accommodation at Cambridge. Cambridge brags that a student has never left through financial hardship. I ran out of money at one point and applied for grants and got given thousands. Gillian you are right - they have a lot of money so can afford to help worse-off students. I also agree completely that you could not be a student there and live outside of Cambridge. Apart from anything else, 9-5 lectures and then two hours of supervision in the evening (say, 6-7 and 8-9), there just aren't enough hours in the day. It is a real shame to go to the "other" university in Cambridge if you have the ability to go to UoC as the other is the other end of the spectrum when it comes to quality of education.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 12:31:04 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225075#225075"]she planned to live at home and commute in daily as she couldn’t afford to live in Cambridge. [/quote]

Clearly I don't know her individual circumstances, but, perhaps surprisingly, the elite Universities often have cheaper accommodation and better bursary systems than other unis. The accommodation is college owned, rather than private sector, and the colleges are wealthy! Plus they only have to pay for it while they are there, rather than 52 weeks to the year.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Kate Richardson — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:51:17 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225079#225079"]Really. Someone who has to spend two hours a day travelling is going to have two hours less a day to study (a bus or a train is less than ideal), and two hours less a day for social stuff. That would put her at a disadvantage to those students who live nearby, and it strikes me that all other things being equal, she'll have a better time and come out more rounded going to a nearer university than killing herself to get through Cambridge. No? [/quote]

Surely that is a decision for her? One size does not fit all. Who’s to say she won’t study more being at home in the evenings and weekends? Socialising can occur during the day as well as the evenings and it’s highly likely she’d make friends who’d allow her to sleep over on occasions. She might even find her situation changes as she progresses through the course and she can afford to live in Cambridge. I just don’t feel it’s right to deny her a place on the basis of where she might live during the course.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:38:50 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225078#225078"]No she’s not black, but would it make a difference if she was?[/quote]

I was joking!

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225078#225078"]I disagree, it’s irrelevant where she lives as long as she is able to attend the course and complete the work.[/quote]

Really. Someone who has to spend two hours a day travelling is going to have two hours less a day to study (a bus or a train is less than ideal), and two hours less a day for social stuff. That would put her at a disadvantage to those students who live nearby, and it strikes me that all other things being equal, she'll have a better time and come out more rounded going to a nearer university than killing herself to get through Cambridge. No?

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Kate Richardson — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:32:44 GMT

No she’s not black, but would it make a difference if she was? I meant to say my post wasn’t specifically about racism but more about advantage. Apologies off tangent, but was in response to gillians post

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225071#225071"]most universities, including vet ones, there are different entry requirements for disadvantaged pupils, as there is general understanding that not everyone has equal opportunities presented to them [/quote]

I disagree, it’s irrelevant where she lives as long as she is able to attend the course and complete the work. Their policy puts her at a disadvantage.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 11:18:43 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225075#225075"]Interesting conversation with my nephews girlfriend last night- both of them are off to uni in September. She was offered a place at Cambridge University and as she lives in the Peterborough area she planned to live at home and commute in daily as she couldn’t afford to live in Cambridge. She was told she HAD to live in within a 5 mile radius to be accepted on the course. Consequently she accepted an offer at a different Cambridge university (not part of THE Cambridge uni) who had no issues with where she lived as long as she turned up for the course. So much for Cambridge trying to be more all inclusive. Shame on them. [/quote]

Kate, er, was she black? I ask because I'm not sure of the relevance to racism!

I'm not sure I think it's unfair for Cambridge to say it wants its students nearby - according to google maps, Peterborough is nearly an hour from Cambridge, and it might take the view that this would massively disadvantage the commuting student, in lots of ways.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Kate Richardson — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 10:52:06 GMT

Interesting conversation with my nephews girlfriend last night- both of them are off to uni in September. She was offered a place at Cambridge University and as she lives in the Peterborough area she planned to live at home and commute in daily as she couldn’t afford to live in Cambridge. She was told she HAD to live in within a 5 mile radius to be accepted on the course. Consequently she accepted an offer at a different Cambridge university (not part of THE Cambridge uni) who had no issues with where she lived as long as she turned up for the course. So much for Cambridge trying to be more all inclusive. Shame on them.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Bob Russell — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 09:18:18 GMT

If it was not for the potential damage to practice reputation and the impact of client bullying posts on the likes of Facebook, nor would I give a toss about social media posts.

I have seen how upset staff members can become when nasty, spiteful and unfair comments are made about the practice. We have really only been party to this once and to this day it causes staff worry. Thankfully it drew many nice people to give much fairer comments.

Sadly it cannot be ignored but many more normal clients have very jaded opinions about the likes of Facebook and Google reviews.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:56:44 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225065#225065"]Who gives a toss about "social media" posts? [/quote]

The irony.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:44:13 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225069#225069"]Some disadvantaged kids may not have the grades or work experience, whatever their skin tone. That's life. We shouldn't make any attempt to manipulate the system [/quote]

Well 'the system' disagrees with you. In most universities, including vet ones, there are different entry requirements for disadvantaged pupils, as there is general understanding that not everyone has equal opportunities presented to them in life.

They are called contextual offers, if you wish to look into it.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:37:34 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225065#225065"]Who gives a toss about "social media" posts? [/quote]

You should! Most of us may be old enough to have experienced the world before Facebook, and see it for what it is, but there is a whole generation growing up without the benefit of that experience. People who I suspect may attach more importance to opinions expressed on facebook than they deserve.

Seriously, even after all this time, I find myself looking slack jawed at arguments conducted on twitter and facebook, and thinking HOW can that person possibly be so vile and opinionated, or indeed care so much that they want to share their vile spoutings with the rest of thew world.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225067#225067"]I really hope the RCVS's plumbing is up to the influx of melting snowflakes.[/quote]

Turn of phrase made me laugh ... but ...

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225067#225067"]I'm proud to be a vet, interested in mental health and wellbeing, interested in psychology, but I feel we are pissing £20,000 down the drain here. Neither of these are issues in the profession.[/quote]

Moral injury? My kneejerk reaction was to be dismissive of it as some sort of snowflaky thing. Then I looked at the paper shared by Malcolm Ness, which talks more about ethical conflict as a cause of distress, and I immediately thought of it as something which needs to be considered and worthy of research.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225068#225068"]Can't say I've ever heard the word Paki used in solely a descriptive way.[/quote]

I'm with you there. I'm not sure I associate the term Chinky with anything positive, either (though for sure it is less pejorative than Paki).

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:30:06 GMT

When I was growing up the shops that were always open and staffed by a gentleman from Pakistan were always known as the "Paki shop". Nothing racist, descriptive term. Same guy behind the counter whether you went in at 6am or 11pm. No one else would work that hard.

Let leave things like the N word as I do believe that has more overt, racist tones and is less commonly used in a positive way. Unless you're a black rapper and then its fine. Is that racist too?

Ridicuous. I said the last time we discussed this - I do not believe for a single second that a kid with good grades and the correct work experience would be denied a place on the vet course. Look at any of the brocures - they need them for the pictures! They are not applying. They are chosing medicine and other careers. Some disadvantaged kids may not have the grades or work experience, whatever their skin tone. That's life. We shouldn't make any attempt to manipulate the system - as long as an equally qualifed minority has an equal chacnce of a place. I believe them genuinely do.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 25 Aug 2020 07:16:30 GMT

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225067#225067"]That's not racism, though. It's descriptive. [/quote]

Can't say I've ever heard the word Paki used in solely a descriptive way.

[quote userid="3169" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225067#225067"]Neither of these are issues in the profession.[/quote]

For you. Obviously you can't know if it is an issue for others.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 22:44:15 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225062#225062"]I still hear the words 'Paki' and 'Chinky' used, though fortunately not as often as I used to.[/quote]

That's not racism, though. It's descriptive. Perfectly acceptable to go for a chinky, not acceptable to not give a Chinese applicant a job if they are the best candidate. Noting that someone is black is not racist. Complaining about the Polish vet is ok, if you are using the fact they are Polish as a means of identification - having an issue with them simply because they are Polish is not ok.

"Racism (definition) - prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized."

The closest I've come to experiencing racism is being told I have white privilege and therefore my views are not worth listening to.

I really hope the RCVS's plumbing is up to the influx of melting snowflakes. I'm proud to be a vet, interested in mental health and wellbeing, interested in psychology, but I feel we are pissing £20,000 down the drain here. Neither of these are issues in the profession.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 21:51:58 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225062#225062"]When I employed vets, the foreign ones got complaints with people specifically mentioning their race in unkind [/quote]

When I employed locums, the only foreign one that was ever complained about was..... the Canadian.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225062#225062"] I have relatives who would rather see 'English' (white?) doctors. [/quote]

And why should they not have a preference for English doctors? It's you who put the "(white?)" interpretation in.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225062#225062"]I see lots and lots of social media posts and comments that are blatantly racist. [/quote]

Who gives a toss about "social media" posts?

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 17:20:57 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225060#225060"]We really do live on different planets then.[/quote]

I can only judge from what I see. When I employed vets, the foreign ones got complaints with people specifically mentioning their race in unkind ways. I have relatives who would rather see 'English' (white?) doctors. I still hear the words 'Paki' and 'Chinky' used, though fortunately not as often as I used to. I see lots and lots of social media posts and comments that are blatantly racist.

I'd love to say racism isn't still out there, but I see it all the time.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 17:06:14 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225059#225059"]Far more choices and opportunities within the main profession. Far better long term income and better conditions.[/quote]

I don't know how the numbers would stack up in a direct comparison with our profession, but things are far from rosy over in the medical profession. They also have a high dropout rate, both in med students and later leaving their careers.

Speaking personally, you couldn't persuade me that the medical profession is more attractive than veterinary medicine. Both have similar issues, and if its money your looking for, look elsewhere.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 15:37:33 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225054#225054"]I guess what you see as advantages in life, I see as a privileges Evelyn - no point playing lexical semantics.[/quote]

I'm not playing, I'm very serious.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225054#225054"] The white man in South Africa running a diamond mine also works hard. Doesn't mean his life isn't more privileged [/quote]

Which illustrates my point perfectly.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225054#225054"]You seem to think that admitting having privilege undermines that you also worked hard?[/quote]

No. Where do you get that idea?

Anyway, if you want to play Humpty Dumpty with the language, I can't stop you.

I suspect the reason people prefer the inaccurate "privilege" to the more accurate "advantage" is because it is easier to put a pejoric nuance into "privilege".

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-racism/225054#225054"] Whilst I see racism as a perpetual issue in all professions,[/quote]

We really do live on different planets then.

RE: Have you experienced racism?

Bob Russell — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 14:45:09 GMT

Of course a medical career is more attractive. Far more choices and opportunities within the main profession. Far better long term income and better conditions.

Anyone using common sense will look on the medical profession more favorably than the veterinary profession. Our bigger earners have left the profession, either to do something else or because they have had a big pay out to sell. Others write books or appear on tv!

RE: Have you experienced moral injury or racism?

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 08:46:58 GMT

[quote userid="3607" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-moral-injury-or-racism/225021#225021"]This paper https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6271308/ is a good introduction to the concept of Moral Injury in the veterinary world.[/quote]

Thanks Malcolm, I started reading that over the weekend, very interesting.

[quote userid="3607" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-moral-injury-or-racism/225034#225034"]

Bob Russell said:
Racism is a completely different matter.

It is, and I am not sure why Racism and Moral Injury were conflated like this.

[/quote]

Sorry, my fault. It happened because the original story was about two research grants awarded at the same time - one for racism research and the other for moral injury. I started the discussion about both, when I should have started two separate ones. I shall split this thread now.

Given this thread has been mainly about the discussion of the word privilege, lets keep this discussion about racism and I'll start a tangent on moral injury.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-moral-injury-or-racism/225043#225043"]If you reply, could you please try to do so without using the word "privilege" which is clearly widely misunderstood, not only by the general public (who misunderstand a lot of things) but by some participants upon this very forum[/quote]

I hadn't really thought about it before, but yes, you are absolutely right, and I think it's a really important point you're making. Firstly, I hate the word 'privilege' which seems so closely tied to class warfare (which is unhelpful). And so often it is totally meaningless. People call the royal family 'privileged', whereas I would say they are anything but. A privilege is subjective. An advantage is not.

I think it was Malcolm who posted something a month or two back about the important thing being to aspire to a fair society. In that discussion, I also think it is much more helpful to talk in terms of advantage, which is much more closely tied to fairness than privilege.

Relative to the population at large, I have had monumentally large advantages. Starting with being the product of a stable home, then having the advantage of a good education, and finally my great grandfather made a truly eye-watering amount of money, and whilst the bulk has subsequently been paid in death duties and divided up amongst subsequent generations, there was enough left behind to put me in the 'bloody lucky' category.

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-moral-injury-or-racism/225026#225026"]The problem is when the privileged can't or won't accept that privilege exists. I don't understand why.[/quote]

I don't see that. Most people I know are advantaged. Very few of them, in fact I cannot think of any, cannot or won't accept that they are advantaged.

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-moral-injury-or-racism/225029#225029"]Because those who have a bit of privilege still have to work very hard to achieve something in life. And when you work hard you may struggle to understand you are privileged. [/quote]

My first reaction was to agree, because I have worked bloody hard. But thinking further, I have always understood that I have had a huge advantage. Or at least since the end of my first day at work at my first job in a cake-making factory in Calne.

Anyway, when it comes to racism in the profession, coming back to your point, Malcolm, I really have not ever seen any evidence of:

[quote userid="3607" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-moral-injury-or-racism/225025#225025"]inequality of opportunity persisting because of the privileged utilising their privilege whether actively or passively, knowingly or unknowingly.[/quote]

Most advantaged people I know (which is, as I said, most people I know) recognise it and try to give something back to society, especially by doing things to support the less advantaged. So I do wonder whether there isn't a strong element of:

[quote userid="6897" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-moral-injury-or-racism/225035#225035"]I suspect that a veterinary career is just not seen as attractive to some ethnic groups - for reasons of culture/status/prestige/finacial prospects or whatever.[/quote]

And this is interesting too:

[quote userid="14080" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29306/have-you-experienced-moral-injury-or-racism/225055#225055"]The demographics of those applying are reflected in the demographics of the profession. Interestingly in medicine 80% of students come from 20% schools, so whilst ethnic diversity in medicine has improved, socioeconomic diversity has not. [/quote]

Does it mean the issue is more of a socio-economic one than a racist one. Like Evelyn, I find it implausible to think white advantaged people are consciously or unconsciously striving to exclude less advantaged people. I find it much more plausible that the exclusion is simply down to disadvantage. I mean, of course with the benefit of good grades from a good school, and some financial backing, I am more likely to be able to go to vet or med school than someone without those advantages.

These things are always multifactorial, of course. So there'll be some socioeconomic factors, cultural ones, and probably some racism, but I would have thought the last of these would be vanishingly small in this well educated, caring profession.

RE: Have you experienced moral injury or racism?

Ex Member — Mon, 24 Aug 2020 07:55:54 GMT

The demographics of those applying are reflected in the demographics of the profession. Interestingly in medicine 80% of students come from 20% schools, so whilst ethnic diversity in medicine has improved, socioeconomic diversity has not.

There is a brilliant study being conducted by KCL looking at children’s science career aspirations and it makes for interesting reading. Link is here https://discovery.ucl.ac.uk/id/eprint/10092041/15/Moote_9538%20UCL%20Aspires%202%20report%20full%20online%20version.pdf