Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Clive Ansell — Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:30:25 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224980#224980"]What's the difference between pheasant shooting and raising 2000 lambs a year (as we did) then culling them at 6 months? At least the pheasant has a chance.[/quote]

I think there's a world of difference. A farmer rearing livestock is carrying out and contributing to a vital industry, i.e the production of food for humans. Animals reared are all accounted for and are slaughtered humanely (we are told, and we hope they are) within controlled and inspected environments. There is a point and a purpose to it.

The mass rearing of pheasants that Malcolm talks about in his OP to produce literally millions of semi tame birds for wanton slaughter in what he calls "big willy contests" just isn't necessary and doesn't contribute to anything in a meaningful way. the idea of some 20 million birds unaccounted for, and 10 -15 cartridges fired for each bird killed also has to raise a welfare concern.

I have no beef with shooting wild birds or game per se, and at least it is a sport and the animal has a chance, plus if they are killed lets hope it is quick and painless. In fact with autumn just around the corner I'm looking forward to restocking the freezer.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224980#224980"]At least the pheasant has a chance.[/quote]

The farmed ones don't really. They just wonder about aimlessly waiting to be massacred or get splatted on a road. Maybe the wild ones do? depends how good the shooters are I guess.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224980#224980"]Not everyone in the countryside wants to pursue game sports but the fact is for some it's a huge part of their life.[/quote]

When I witnessed closely many shoots in the 80's, they were very few country folk involved. Most participants were countrified town folk, local small business owners, corporate events and the like, out for a days shooting and a p*** up. Not really sporting at all (in my view). Malcolm's right, they were big dick contests.

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224980#224980"]Sorry Clive[/quote]

No need to be :-)

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 19 Aug 2020 11:37:16 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224950#224950"]As for being part of country life, complete tosh. I was born and brought up in deep rural Worcestershire and it didn't form a significant part of my or my families life. [/quote]

So if I live within in Liverpool by the same reasoning football being part of my life is complete tosh

Not everyone in the countryside wants to pursue game sports but the fact is for some it's a huge part of their life. Look at a farmer, he (as my father did) spends every working hour on a 1000 acre farm seeing no-one, even market day has gone now. His outlet is getting together with fellow country folk and either beating or shooting. As a profession where the hours for vets are frankly too long, a farmers life is harder as it is literally 24/7. Then along come people saying 'you shouldn't do this and that' it creates resentment. Animals are their life and death is as well, it's hard wired. What's the difference between pheasant shooting and raising 2000 lambs a year (as we did) then culling them at 6 months? At least the pheasant has a chance.

Sorry Clive

Neil

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Julian Earl — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 18:59:17 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224967#224967"] But, I guess I'm just a hardened and cynical old oldie at 56. [/quote]

Thanks for that reply Clive. So, you are 56? You're just a kid!!

I'll put your original comments down to the impetuosity of youth!

Good wishes...

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Bob Russell — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 14:54:56 GMT

Always struck me that being netted from the sea and allowed to 'suffocate' on board ship cannot be that nice a death.

Bullfighting where bulls are speared to weaken them, ready for some brightly dressed pimped up poser to put them out of the misery he/she has created in the first place.

Dogs killed for food under atrocious conditions especially where the idiot consumer thinks the meat tastes better when the dog has suffered.

It really is a very sad list!

We really are not very nice at all!

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Derek Lyon — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 14:27:50 GMT

Who wishes to start a thread on the welfare of fishing?

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 12:54:42 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224967#224967"] over time folk in general are becoming less resilient, are more/too sensitive, worry too much over things, and are too easily offended.[/quote]

Or maybe people are now just more able to be open about their feelings and emotions? The 'stiff upper lip' approach caused a lot of mental health issues too - they were just better hidden.

Obviously the biggest influencer for most of us is experience, with negative experiences being a big push for us changing as people. So maybe those of us who are 'hardened' and 'cynical' as older folk had to go through some very tough times that we'd be happy not happening to the younger generation?

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 10:09:33 GMT

Point taken, and apologies if any offence caused to anyone, it was certainly not my intention to do so.

My comments were not directed at the younger generations at all, I just feel that over time folk in general are becoming less resilient, are more/too sensitive, worry too much over things, and are too easily offended. But, I guess I'm just a hardened and cynical old oldie at 56.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Julian Earl — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 07:45:14 GMT

Yes, Clive and everyone. Please consider how your terms might be taken. This is an interesting thread and we don't want Arlo to pull the plug because blood is being spilt!, do we?

All language matters!

Thank you.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 07:32:52 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224960#224960"]pussified folk.[/quote]

wow, I mean, wow.

Regardless of the implication of the term you might just confuse the youngster's natural tendency to be left with a permanent state of mind of the "new" generation.

The hard people of today (and by that I mean old) were once the the snowflake generation of the 70' protesting against Vietnam or other wars. Flower power and all that.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 06:45:56 GMT

[quote userid="3607" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224951#224951"]Seems reasonable but it is interesting to reflect that expressing that exact same sentiment - that all lives matter - in another context would attract opprobrium.[/quote]

I think if I were to rephrase my post, I would say that I find the mass production of semi tame pheasants for wanton slaughter to be pointless, purposeless, with a big question mark concerning their welfare. I'm not against gunsports or the shooting of birds per se, but in my view this area of it should be outlawed by legislation.

That said, there are many other industries with animal welfare concerns that are just as bad or worse, if one wants to get fired up about it.

Not sure about the "all lives matter" phrase. doesn't really mean anything.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Clive Ansell — Tue, 18 Aug 2020 06:33:54 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224957#224957"]My comfort is to tell myself that in fifty or a hundred years this era we live in will be regarded with amusement as a period of temporary insanity.[/quote]

I wouldn't hold your breath while you wait. I think things will get worse rather than better, as we seem to be breeding a snowflake generation of pandered, pampered, ponsified and pussified folk.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 22:08:05 GMT

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224957#224957"]as a period of temporary insanity[/quote]

Absolutely nothing to do with pheasant rearing but had to smile at something I read in one of the daily papers just recently. You'll be aware of Marcus Rashford's successful (and perhaps worthy) campaign to extend free school meals throughout the school holidays for children from poorer backgrounds. What I hadn't seen reported on was a Twitter comment from Courtney Lawes (large black rugby player) saying that it was also a good time to re-evaluate the importance of marriage because statistics showed that there was a much lower incidence of married couples separating than co-habiting couples - and the often dire knock on effects separation can have on children's life chances. Unsurprisingly his comments weren't as well received as those of Marcus Rashford - he was accused of being a "snob" and privileged. We live in a time when many people only want to hear the things that confirm their narrow view of the world.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 21:55:37 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224950#224950"]in the breeding of some severely deformed and dysfunctional dogs. [/quote]

And on the large animal side certain breeds of cattle and sheep which routinely need to have caesarean sections in order for their oversized foetuses to be born.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 19:21:53 GMT

Yes.

My comfort is to tell myself that in fifty or a hundred years this era we live in will be regarded with amusement as a period of temporary insanity.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 13:58:13 GMT

[quote userid="3607" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224951#224951"]it is interesting to reflect that expressing that exact same sentiment - that all lives matter - in another context would attract opprobrium.[/quote]

Only because some people wish to make a problem when none exists. Trying to improve the welfare of pheasants doesn't mean you care less about the rest of the animal kingdom.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Julian Earl — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 09:06:38 GMT

Have any posters on this topic considered looking at/taking the welfare certificate? This is the sort of subject that is discussed in detail and candidates maybe even examined upon!

Just a thought!

Julian Earl, AVP-status -(SHP); , and (AWSEL). [retired], status which I mention not for ragging- rights but to prove I've been there, done that, so speak from experience. Thanks for listening!

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Malcolm Ness — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:52:59 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224950#224950"]As an aside though; maybe if we are considering welfare we should look at factory farming (and our role in it)? the keeping of pets (Keeping knackered old cats and dogs alive for no real purpose)? and our own professions role in the breeding of some severely deformed and dysfunctional dogs. [/quote]

Seems reasonable but it is interesting to reflect that expressing that exact same sentiment - that all lives matter - in another context would attract opprobrium.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Clive Ansell — Mon, 17 Aug 2020 08:44:10 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224937#224937"]Regarding the welfare of pheasant rearing, it's not great[/quote]

I would agree with that. Although not directly involved, the estate and farm I worked for in the 1980's were heavily involved with this; often reared outdoors in large steel mesh cages, many seemed to succumb to enteric diseases and there were heavy losses, and many were in poor condition and underweight. Once released they didn't wander far, many couldn't or wouldn't fly, and those that got as far as a road would be splatted. Dreadful from a welfare point of view to my mind. An abhorrent business. I can clearly remember half drunken twats blasting pheasants just walking around on the ground - why for fcuk sake??

I understand about population control and estate management, I understand folk wanting to partake in gun sports, but why anyone would want to shoot or massacre dozens of semi-tame birds (or any other species for that matter) is beyond me. I've shot at clays and as David says, great fun, but I've no wish to shoot a living thing without good reason.

As for being part of country life, complete tosh. I was born and brought up in deep rural Worcestershire and it didn't form a significant part of my or my families life.

As an aside though; maybe if we are considering welfare we should look at factory farming (and our role in it)? the keeping of pets (Keeping knackered old cats and dogs alive for no real purpose)? and our own professions role in the breeding of some severely deformed and dysfunctional dogs.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Iain Richards — Sun, 16 Aug 2020 11:29:15 GMT

Good post form David.

Regarding the welfare of pheasant rearing, it's not great. There is no industry standard of size of cages and barren (ie steel) are common, maybe 3m x 3m 1 cock to 8-10 hens. One wing is often, "brailed" - band applied to stop flapping. A lot of transport does occur as many ontract rearing sites occur with birds taken to them to lay eggs that are then taken back to the hatchery.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

David Mills — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 22:34:27 GMT

I think this is many-layered and it's easy t get distracted by a wider discussion on hunting sport.

The welfare of any farmed animal rests on their husbandry, transport and slaughter. The greatest impact is almost always the husbandry (severity/duration), and trasnport can be very stressful (esp sheep). Slaughter has a significant short-term impact when done badly.

I know little about pheasant rearing or the welfare aspects of it, but it is an answerable question using standard welfare measurement tools. There is no transport stress as far as I can see. The slaughter, if killed on impact, is unlikely to involve any negative welfare except the flight reaction away from the source that makes them fly. Those injured in a welfare-friendly shoot should have a method of dispatching them quickly.

There is a local economic impact which is important, and there is a cultural aspect that should be respected.

Thoughts about whether these shoots are justified are essentially an ethical debate, not a welfare one, although welfare will feed into the justifiability of these debates. I haven't and wouldn't shoot live pheasants, although I enjoy clays immensely. I don't see the thrill of shooting semi-tame rather naive animals. But that is nothing to do with their welfare (I don't know enough about it, in all honesty).

It is, as others have said, a different proposition to hunting deer, which should if done correctly be done to reduce population numbers and be done in a welfare-friendly way (if an animal is to be killed, surely the most welfare-friendly way is free living and instant death); again I don't get the human attraction, but I also detest rugby, Fox hunting I cannot ever condone from the sheer awfulness of the chase before death.

With 'country' sports (leaving aside man pheasant shoots esp in the south are populated almost entirely by City bankers) there will always be an argument of rights, traditions, and welfare. Tradition is not a trumping argument in any discourse (bull baiting, badger baiting, hare coursing, racism, sexism etc etc etc) but it is not to say it is not an important consideration. From an ethical standpoint, the animal welfare aspect is the most important for me, and it is a multi-factorial concept/measurement.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Emily Rainbow — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:08:50 GMT

Its the waste that grates with me. I’ve been on a couple of shoots (other half many more) and the general consensus on the smaller (cheaper!) shoots tends to be more akin to my thoughts where the birds will all get used, injured birds are found and are taken seriously as there’s no big commercial rush to get to lunch ASAP!

We are gifted between 2-300 birds each season from a local shoot who are pleased to see them being used rather than gone to waste. An avenue those interested could explore - we’re down to our last 3 birds in the freezer now!

I’m a meat eater, we have a a large freezer full of local pheasant and local venison (other half stalks) and we have just started rearing our own lamb and dexter beef. I like to think these animals have all had a good quality life, few food miles and will have a quick, humane despatch.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Stephen Pointing — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 16:57:49 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224925#224925"]I worked in a hen processing plant many years ago[/quote]

I've got a couple of hens at home which i made the mistake of allowing to roam freely during the summer months so that when I enclosed them again for the winter they were none too pleased. Anyway they found their way out and are now living in mine and my neighbour's garden and roosting on the front porch next to where I have my home office. So I see them last thing at night outside my office window and first thing in the morning when they come to the back door for their morning feed. They also turn up at lunchtime for a feed and when I get back in the evening. All this really brings home to me how "clever" and companionable hens can be - given the chance. I'm heading off on annual leave next week so between now and then I have to catch the pair of them so that they go to their boarding hen house.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Sarah Keir — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 14:22:21 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224910#224910"]you are arguing that one can't condemn the killing of aniamls by people if you own a cat (outdoor)[/quote]

The cat is exhibiting its natural behaviour. Is shooting of defenseless animals purely for sport/fun by humans, natural behaviour? Some of the shot meat is eaten but only as a byproduct not the primary reason for the industry. I would hope that as humans evolve, we can decide that killing for fun is not necessary.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Gillian Mostyn — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 11:57:18 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224925#224925"]We are a pretty rubbish species really.[/quote]

Which we are fortunately beginning to recognise.

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/off-duty-discussions/29280/pheasant-farming-shooting-a-welfare-problem/224925#224925"]I am not hypocritical enough to condemn this so called sport.[/quote]

Why would it be hypocritical? If we see what we perceive as cruel and unethical behaviour, surely we are right to condemn it? You'd presumably do so at work? Obviously we should also be open to comments, reflection and change to our own behaviour too where others see it as needed.

RE: Pheasant farming/shooting. A welfare problem?

Julian Earl — Sat, 15 Aug 2020 10:21:19 GMT

Wel lSaid Bob, and good for you for speaking up at that plant. We can only hope that there were long-term benefits as well?

Bravo!