VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:45:35 GMT

[quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224774#224774"]So, due to me being either slightly stupid (possibly), fairly pre-occupied at moment (definitely) or just missed the crucial moment (also very possible) I didn’t realise that the Expert Help was up and running properly! I did think that there was a recent lack of clinical discussion topics, but thought maybe coronavirus, furlough etc had slowed things down on the clinical discussion front.[/quote]

Another update, which is that after your(and other people's feedback), it really seemed to me that we (I) need to up my game in communicating or advertising the features of the site. So I've hired a consultant who is helping us set up a much more sophisticated advertising system than we have used in the past. It's not going to change anything about the product advertising on the site, but it will allow me to explore clever ways of enticing you over to the expert forums, for example. Or to the news.

Tell you what, though, it is SERIOUSLY complicated!

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 10 Aug 2020 08:03:14 GMT

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224798#224798"]In a perfect world everything would be referenced, but it is not always possible.[/quote][quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224799#224799"]One of the especially good things about this site is the spreading of treatment ideas which may be based on experience rather than documented evidence. [/quote]

I wasn't saying that opinion/experience is banned! Just that in a professional forum, we should always be clear when we are sharing a fact and when we are sharing an opinion. And if the former, then we should reference it.

In practical terms, that means prefacing opinion with the words: "I think" or "in my experience" or words to that effect. And then making sure that there is enough info in your profile that readers can go and see what your experience actually is: whether you left vet school last week or have been in the game for 30 years.

Or if it is fact, then providing a link to where the reader can verify for themselves.

This contrasts with other discussion platforms where so often people march in and say: "this is the way it is" ie stating something as fact when it is not necessarily so.

Now you might argue that you're a scientific professional and you are trained to assess information (and its importance or not). To which I would say, politely, bollocks... We ALL suffer from, amongst other things, confirmation bias, where we subconsciously select for information that supports our preconceived ideas. So if you go into facebook and ask for an opinion, and 5 people agree and 5 disagree, chances are you'll pick the ones that agree with you. If, however, you could see that one of the dissenters was obviously an expert in their field and referenced a study, then you're going to stop and think harder.

That, for me is what the difference should be between here and facebook.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Bob Russell — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 09:46:17 GMT

This is a profession where fact and opinion can be difficult to separate!

One of the especially good things about this site is the spreading of treatment ideas which may be based on experience rather than documented evidence.

Documented evidence is often in short supply whereas experience is not. In the old days we often picked up useful ideas via company reps! I started to use ivomec to treat mange in guinea pigs because a rep told me others had been successful with it!! Long gone are the days where a rep offers opinion or ideas!

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Rob Davis — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 09:22:17 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224786#224786"]a) Collaborative / Helpful at all times[/quote]

Agreed, but not at the expense of healthy debate. It has to be ok (and should be encouraged) to voice a different opinion to avoid the echo-chamber effect. The subsequent rules should ensure that this is done in an appropriate, inoffensive way.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224786#224786"]b) A good provenance for opinions being expressed. In other words, giving relevant information in your profile. How many years you've been working. Additional qualifications etc etc. [/quote]

Definitely sets this apart from Facebook.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224786#224786"]c) Clearly differentiating between when you are expressing an opinion vs when you are sharing a fact[/quote][quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224786#224786"]

d) When you are sharing a fact, always sharing a reference (whether it be a scientific study, or a newspaper report, or whatever).

[/quote]

In a perfect world everything would be referenced, but it is not always possible.

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224786#224786"]e) Ideally, in a professional environment, we should be displaying our real names. I know that some have been hesitant in the past, perhaps for fear of being judged, but if we all sign up to the other things, then it really shouldn't be necessary. There is always the anon account for those who want to post something sensitive. [/quote]

I agreed in principle, but I am aware that there are many who will be unhappy to do this, including some regular and very valuable contributors. While I would prefer to have real names displayed and it can be difficult to achieve b) above without doing so, I understand why some find it easy to contribute more freely with a degree of anonymity and I would not want this to be enforced at the expense of losing some really useful contributions. Obviously all expert opinions need to be using real names!

Plus the usual stuff about turbo-posting etc, but this seems to have been much better recently.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Sat, 08 Aug 2020 08:08:42 GMT

www.youtube.com/watch

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 Aug 2020 17:16:07 GMT

Then, as I was driving home just now, I was thinking to myself that the direction of travel is not just about the VetSurgeon Expert Forums. If one aspires to the highest standards of clinical discussion, a certain set of standards and values should apply to everything on VetSurgeon.

And what would the values / rules of a professional community that aspires to the highest standards be? How about these:

a) Collaborative / Helpful at all times

b) A good provenance for opinions being expressed. In other words, giving relevant information in your profile. How many years you've been working. Additional qualifications etc etc.

c) Clearly differentiating between when you are expressing an opinion vs when you are sharing a fact

d) When you are sharing a fact, always sharing a reference (whether it be a scientific study, or a newspaper report, or whatever).

e) Ideally, in a professional environment, we should be displaying our real names. I know that some have been hesitant in the past, perhaps for fear of being judged, but if we all sign up to the other things, then it really shouldn't be necessary. There is always the anon account for those who want to post something sensitive.

What does everyone think. Are there any other rules/values you think a professional community should espouse.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 Aug 2020 15:47:31 GMT

So when I say that my communication about the expert help forums needs to 'talk' to new grads, I should probably extend that to 'anyone at all' ;)

In fact, the expert forums are sort of up and running. We've got more experts in some subjects than others (and none at all in one or two).

Dentistry, Anaesthesia, Cardiology, Medicine all have a good number of experts.

I've been announcing them via a succession of emails. But the open rates of emails is at very, very best 50%, so at very best only a 50% chance you'd have seen. As you say, need to be doing much more to signpost on the website, and I will.

[quote userid="3685" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224774#224774"]I did think that there was a recent lack of clinical discussion topics[/quote]

I've said in other forum threads that I hope the expert forums will also prove to be a conversation starter, because you can now tangent a point out of the expert forum thread and into a new open forum thread which anyone can contribute to.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Nicola Cole — Fri, 07 Aug 2020 12:20:27 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224760#224760"]Make sure it feels approachable (I think we are off to a great start with that, because when you look at the expert help threads, they are characterised by helpfulness!)[/quote]

So, due to me being either slightly stupid (possibly ), fairly pre-occupied at moment (definitely) or just missed the crucial moment (also very possible) I didn’t realise that the Expert Help was up and running properly! I did think that there was a recent lack of clinical discussion topics, but thought maybe coronavirus, furlough etc had slowed things down on the clinical discussion front.

The last thing I read about it was when you were asking a couple of people to post questions to an expert to see whether people were notified etc etc.

I am a regular lurker, and semi-regular poster. I log on, go straight to ‘All forums’ (or whatever it’s called) and have completely bypassed the ‘Expert Help’ section.

So yes, as the Expert side of things is the biggest thing that differentiates VetSurgeon from Facebook, it definitely needs to take centre stage-far too easy to bypass at the moment!

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 Aug 2020 08:11:40 GMT

Sarah Keir Apps have three features that websites generally don't.

a) Installed on phone, so there is an icon there (which you can of course do with a website, but you have to ask people to do it.

b) Notifications: the number on the icon which tells you of new activity

c) Offline access to info.

Thinking how that applies to VetSurgeon / VetNurse, the only one that I think is important is b. When you think of the huge expense of building and maintaining apps (both of them, because you have to do the iphone and the android versions), they simply do not make any sense for the sort of content we host here.

Offline access to info would only work for news and jobs (not forums due to the real time nature). And these days, how many times are people prevented from looking for a job because they are in an area with a weak connection?! And how many people are frustrated at not being able to read veterinary news for the same reason. Intuitively, I would say a small number!

Notifications are useful and I am thinking about an app specifically for notifying you of new content.

Installed on phone. Yes, I agree that would be good. But on its own, it's not a big enough reason for that level of investment.

I don't rule out building an app to do something else. But it would not be to display news, jobs or forums.

Nicola Cole My god, you have a good memory! Yes, we did. Didn't have a huge takeup (could have been that I just didn't market it enough). I'm sure others do something similar now? BSAVA? Also, all these sorts of things take lots of work and time to get off the ground, and I think having decided to go down the expert forum route, that is what now needs my undivided attention. But, you make an important point, which is that I need to make sure my communication about the expert forums 'talks' to new grads. Make sure it feels approachable (I think we are off to a great start with that, because when you look at the expert help threads, they are characterised by helpfulness!)

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Nicola Cole — Thu, 06 Aug 2020 23:18:55 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please"]What do YOU think are the most important things I need to say and do to get more veterinary surgeons, especially younger ones, using VetSurgeon?[/quote]

I’m not sure if I’m remembering this correctly but did you have a new grad mentorship thingy-ma-gingy on here a good 10-15 years ago? Could that tie in with the expert/experienced vet help side of things to make it more approachable for them?

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Sarah Keir — Thu, 06 Aug 2020 19:01:41 GMT

Arlo Guthrie Don't underestimate the clickability of an app over having to type into a web browser on a phone - seems some people are that lazy these days or needing the immediacy of clicking on an app not creating an icon to link to on their phone screen or going via a web browser. But apps have less functionality than websites. The key is to make sure the function is there and it is seamless on mobile devises as that is what everyone has in their pocket. Perhaps some bits would do better on an app such as the job listings. I've asked hubbie and he says it is a massive thing to create an app from scratch but if your software writers have used generic (and free) forum creation software then some of these come with app bits (sorry that is the extent of my understanding from what my husband told me).

Perhaps the key is market research - I'm doing an entrepreneurship course at present and interviewing my target audience. And that doesn't mean asking us on here, we are here already but finding out the problems that people need you to service and the barriers to them getting the solutions they need.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 06 Aug 2020 08:16:40 GMT

Well, let's do it.

Whenever you are ready. It means that I think the platform has many benefits over FB and I think it can be further expanded to other language/locations. You've got the means, and I have the language skills and a little bit of IT knowledge in website making and programming. Let's make it bigger. PM me?

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 06 Aug 2020 07:31:28 GMT

[quote userid="11493" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224724#224724"]Does this mean you're not doing anything else for a while or are you ready for new challenges? I've got a few ideas, give me a cut from advertising and I'll expand the site to Spanish in Spain. [/quote]

There you are Francisco Gomez - been missing you! I wonder what you mean by does this mean? Does what mean?

Anyway, why the laugh emoticon. Yes, I'd be interested in Spain if you think there is a need there. Yes, I would give you a cut. A substantial one.

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224722#224722"]I may be wrong but.... I wonder if visiting a website on the phone to participate seems a bit old fashioned. An app seems somehow flashier. I am sure that creating an app is probably a whole other ballgame in terms of programming and cost, but maybe that's what the young folk want?[/quote]

Rob Davis - I've thought about apps for a long time (as you can imagine!). There are a few things about apps. First is that the general direction of travel these days is away from apps and towards what are called progressive web apps, which combine the flexibility of a website with the notifications that apps offer. Second, when you think of what VetSurgeon does, about the only added benefit of an app is notifications. In other words, I would not create a forum or news app, because both these things should display on a phone perfectly well and function the same, if not better, as a webpage.

For me, the only reason for an app is notifications. That is something I am considering. We have installed a notification web app for android, though I am not sure if it it working because I don't have an android phone! (I am going to buy one for testing purposes).

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224722#224722"]I would definitely qualify as older, but not always wiser.... Facebook does tend to encourage lots of opinions presented as facts by people with very little relevant knowledge in my experience. As you have said, it is often difficult to know which bits to trust and which to ignore unless you have personal knowledge of the individual posters.[/quote]

This for me is absolutely the single most important thing. It is what Tim Berners Lee Talked about at length. It is, I think, potentially quite dangerous. And it is what I mean when I talk about the highest standards of clinical discussion and information sharing: First provenance, the display of the professional qualifications and experience of the poster, second, referencing points made, and I plan to add something to encourage more of that (a specific box when you post for adding links to studies).

These are things we do, or can do better than Facebook. I would hope that higher standards of clinical discussion are as appealing, perhaps even more so to younger vets as older ones, although perhaps the concept is a bit more daunting than facebook, and I need to get across that it isn't!

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 06 Aug 2020 06:44:41 GMT

Does this mean you're not doing anything else for a while or are you ready for new challenges? I've got a few ideas, give me a cut from advertising and I'll expand the site to Spanish in Spain.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Rob Davis — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 18:55:19 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224721#224721"]If you look at the site these days, it is now fully designed for mobile phone, so that is done (and Sarah Keir, i think you talked about the 'move towards' earlier and I thought 'er, but we are there now!)[/quote]

I may be wrong but.... I wonder if visiting a website on the phone to participate seems a bit old fashioned. An app seems somehow flashier. I am sure that creating an app is probably a whole other ballgame in terms of programming and cost, but maybe that's what the young folk want?

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224721#224721"]but I also think there is probably a generally older, wiser crowd here who they could learn a lot from generally.[/quote]

I would definitely qualify as older, but not always wiser.... Facebook does tend to encourage lots of opinions presented as facts by people with very little relevant knowledge in my experience. As you have said, it is often difficult to know which bits to trust and which to ignore unless you have personal knowledge of the individual posters.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 18:29:38 GMT

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224718#224718"]I also think that mobile functionality is key for younger vets. I almost never look at vetsurgeon on my phone, but I think that is how most of the younger generation interact with the rest of the world (OMG I sound so OLD!!).[/quote]

Rob Davis If you look at the site these days, it is now fully designed for mobile phone, so that is done (and Sarah Keir, i think you talked about the 'move towards' earlier and I thought 'er, but we are there now!)

[quote userid="2235" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224718#224718"]I too often suggest that our younger vets visit the site, but few seem to do so. I think facebook is so familiar to them that they don't see how much better discussion is on here. I will keep trying! [/quote]

When I ask myself why younger vets should be using VetSurgeon, I would say, once again, that the expert forums should be a great help, but I also think there is probably a generally older, wiser crowd here who they could learn a lot from generally.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Rob Davis — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 17:52:56 GMT

I too often suggest that our younger vets visit the site, but few seem to do so. I think facebook is so familiar to them that they don't see how much better discussion is on here. I will keep trying!

I also think that mobile functionality is key for younger vets. I almost never look at vetsurgeon on my phone, but I think that is how most of the younger generation interact with the rest of the world (OMG I sound so OLD!!).

Don't change the font, I think it is perfect. It's like a good referee - not noticing it is a sign it is doing its job well - you don't want anything distracting or difficult to read.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 09:07:00 GMT

[quote userid="7269" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224688#224688"]I will try to get the younger members of our team to join. [/quote]

Thank you Joyce Whitehead, that's what we need more of: existing members being ambassadors and getting younger members of the team to come and join. And I think again it comes back to the Expert Help Forums, and telling younger vets that this is a useful resource for when there isn't anyone else around to ask, or even when there is, and they just want to know what some of the leading minds in the country think of a particular drug / approach / case.

[quote userid="7269" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224688#224688"]On the home page, your new “the highest standard of clinical discussion“ I feel could be more dominant.[/quote]

The problem is space! The other headlines are less words and truncated on mobile. I'll see if I can make it any bigger, but may be limited.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Aug 2020 09:01:19 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224690#224690"]getting them involved as students [/quote][quote userid="9515" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224692#224692"]vetstudent.org[/quote]

The biggest problem with that is the lack of hours in my day - what I mean is that it is a full time job running these sites and producing content for qualified vets without adding student content, let alone a whole new website (though I do have a spare license for the software ... hmmm...)

I guess I am more inclined to try and think about how I leverage what we already have to support new grads. To that end, perhaps it is just a question of more targeted communications about the Expert Help Forums, because a) they maybe of particular help to new grads, and b) the experts presumably would want to start building relationships with the new grads that have the potential to become long term referrers.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Sarah Keir — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 20:48:26 GMT

vetsurgeon.org, vetnurse.org and now vetstudent.org - good idea!

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Beats — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 19:48:57 GMT

getting them involved as students - they will stay if they like it.

I think the majority of posters (or at least a disproportionate percentage compared to make-up of profession) are employers / self-employed / similar.

I don't have the answers, but forum members being extra nice to students + advertising the site directly to students in a fashion that is likely to lead to students signing up in the first place likely to be part of it. Perhaps producing regular material (news or clinical) aimed directly at students would encourage them to frequent the site? Students are busy and the internet has infinite resources already available for them to peruse, so there has to be a reason for them to wish to engage with the site - you could find out what would be of use/interest to students, or have a student only section on the forums (safe from the prying eyes of professional employers, but perhaps with recent graduates allowed, i.e. you can keep your student status priviliged access for 3 years on graduating) - make it sound exclusive and more will be inclined to sign up.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 18:38:07 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224679#224679"]First, I guess I need to know whether that sentiment is widespread. Personally I don't look at it and think 'dated', largely because it is a sans serif font. But what do others think?[/quote]

Actually I would personally refer to a typeface, or just a face, rather than a font, but let that pass........

It's utterly neutral and yet has a slight character, as you say, less boring than Ariel ; less cold than Helvetica. You don't notice it; you don't look at the text and say "ooh, nice font" or for that matter "yuk, horrid font". Trebuchet or Gill Sans, perfect for this sort of thing.

Please don't go to something trendy. Readability is what matters, and readability on a screen is different from readability on paper.

And remember, readability depends not only upon the typeface but upon its size and very much upon the leading (the space between lines). Many amateur editors don't appreciate this and just go for "single spacing", which is usually a mistake.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Joyce Whitehead — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 18:10:48 GMT

I like your new strap lines, they read well. On the home page, your new “the highest standard of clinical discussion“ I feel could be more dominant. It’s rather outranked by the latest news headline. The font looks fine to me but I’m not young. I will try to get the younger members of our team to join.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:30:03 GMT

[quote userid="8858" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/site-support-discussions/29267/vetsurgeon-members---your-thoughts-please/224683#224683"]I just asked my partner's opinion, he trained as a typographic designer. His reaction was' it's not offensive, it's easy to read, a bit dated now, but the easiest way to modernise it might be to change the rust red to black and see how that looks'[/quote]

Hmm - you mean the rust red used to show active links? But that is only a relatively small part of the text. I could try that, but I don't think I could just go to black, because then there would be no indication as to what are links and what are not ...

Something else I noticed today and thought - god what a klutz am I.

The Expert Help Forum home page, when logged out, just presented the visitor with a list of post titles. No explanation as to what they were, or why they should login and use it.

I have now added this text at the top of the page, and I wondered what everyone things. Does it float your boat? Do you think that if you happened on the site and you saw this, you would think ... hmm - interesting, I will register / post:

Expert Help for GP Vets

Primary care veterinary practitioners: LOGIN and you can submit clinical questions for referral practitioners and experts for their opinion.

Your question can be a general one, or a specific case question, and since it can only be answered by experts, you can be assured of a helpful, friendly reply! Not only that, both you and the experts can claim the time spent on your question towards your annual CPD requirement.

RE: VetSurgeon Members - your thoughts PLEASE!

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 04 Aug 2020 17:24:23 GMT

I just asked my partner's opinion, he trained as a typographic designer. His reaction was' it's not offensive, it's easy to read, a bit dated now, but the easiest way to modernise it might be to change the rust red to black and see how that looks'