Cat Bites on Humans

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Julian Earl — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 19:25:48 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29240/cat-bites-on-humans/224496#224496"]hink the discussion was more about treatment of abcesses rather than a fresh initial bite wound to be fair[/quote]

That is very relevant to what I was to say. I think that the large fluid abscess following a deep penetrating cat bite does not justify antibiosis. The primary treatment has to be drainage which relieves the pain virtually instantly and in some cats can be done with a scalpel blade size 11 without sedation or general anaesthesia. Followiing the eruption of pus which is of course mostly just necrotic tissue and less of active bacteria, then the cavity is flushed with sterile saline. Such cavities if thoroughly flushed rarely develop into another abscess. Plus, I would question exactly just how much antibiotic reaches into a large abscessat bacteriocidal level in that situation anyway . How does killing a few bacteria reduce the pain of that abscess? Our job is to improve the welfare/ stop the pain, not necessarily wipe out the bacteria?

Hence no antibiosis will help. However I think that NSAIDs are justified for a day or several days as seems appropriate for the case.

One advantage of sedation for this is it facilitates better flushing of the debris. If there is cellulitis associated with the abscess or bite then antibiotics are essential but that is different pathology.

Regarding Kate's comment I think that antibiotics are justified very early on after a fresh, deep bite where bacteria have been introduced and an abscess or cellulitis can be prevented by early antibiosis. That is justifiable to me. i For 2-3 days or more if necessary to stop the abscess developing.

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Clive Ansell — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 14:29:09 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29240/cat-bites-on-humans/224485#224485"]The enquiry is if a cat to human bite is done with the same force as a cat to cat bite and does this make any difference in prescribing.[/quote]

But surely, cat to cat and cat to human bites will all vary massively in magnitude; from just a nip that just breaks the skin through to a deep penetrating wound affecting multiple tissue layers. In addition there must be other factors too that determine how clinically significant any bite wound is; size and strength of the biting cat, dental condition and hygiene of the biting cat, site of injury on the victim, for example.

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29240/cat-bites-on-humans/224485#224485"]Most vets (those I asked) will give antibiotics for a cat -cat bite so can we apply the same logic to cat-human bites?[/quote]

I don't give antibiotics to every cat to cat bite I see. if the wound looks fairly recent and superficial I will clip and clean the area, that's all. Most don't represent with massive festering abscesses and cellulitis.

If get bitten by a cat, I will clean well with Chlorhexidine. Most will get better, and I've very rarely needed antibiotics - twice in 24 years I think.

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Kate Richardson — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 14:07:29 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29240/cat-bites-on-humans/224493#224493"]'puts hard hat on'. After a recent spat on this very site, I was firmly told that antibiotics shouldn't be used for cat bites and I was wrong for doing so[/quote]

I think the discussion was more about treatment of abcesses rather than a fresh initial bite wound to be fair

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Bob Russell — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 14:02:37 GMT

Antibiotics are quite regularly used in humans for dog bites. Antibiotics are regularly used in humans for cat bites. Antibiotics are fairly regularly used in humans for bee stings (because people scratch the area).

Nobody is going to convince me that they are inappropriate for cat to cat bites. They may just not be needed every time!

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:37:43 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29240/cat-bites-on-humans/224485#224485"]Most vets (those I asked) will give antibiotics for a cat -cat bite[/quote]

'puts hard hat on'. After a recent spat on this very site, I was firmly told that antibiotics shouldn't be used for cat bites and I was wrong for doing so! Go figure....

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Malcolm Ness — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 12:31:56 GMT

If it matters at all then the clinician attending the bitten human will need to know about the force of that particular bite and not just cat-bites in general. Regarding the extrapolation from veterinary anecdote to human prescribing - that is a big leap. I recall treating very, very few cat bites as soon as they had happened - most were abscess/cellulitis cases presenting some long time after it was presumed that the cat had been bitten. I suspect that most human cases will present at once.

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Iain Richards — Fri, 24 Jul 2020 09:52:25 GMT

Yer Wha? surely

However, The enquiry is if a cat to human bite is done with the same force as a cat to cat bite and does this make any difference in prescribing. Most vets (those I asked) will give antibiotics for a cat -cat bite so can we apply the same logic to cat-human bites? If there was a difference in bite force, that might affect the decision making.

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 22:22:57 GMT

Yer wo' ?

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Iain Richards — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:40:01 GMT

Eh?

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Iain Richards — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:39:19 GMT

That's me doing the tangential One Health thinking

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:20:21 GMT

[quote userid="4367" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29240/cat-bites-on-humans/224433#224433"]Bites on people (as per the title of the thread[/quote]

Yes of course, but why are they worrying about whether bites on cats are different?

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Clive Ansell — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:09:17 GMT

thanks

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Bob Russell — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 08:52:32 GMT

'Good Old Boys Sat Around the Table'

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Clive Ansell — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 08:06:48 GMT

what is GOBSAT?

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

David Mills — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 08:00:12 GMT

Sounds like a lovely case of GOBSAT

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Iain Richards — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 07:52:46 GMT

Bites on people (as per the title of the thread )

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 22 Jul 2020 21:16:37 GMT

Can I ask of what interest this is to N.I.C.E., which is not, that I am aware of, worried about cats biting cats?

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Iain Richards — Wed, 22 Jul 2020 13:24:22 GMT

IT's likely that the force is the same. If the cat is held by a human and bites or in conflict with another cat and bites, it's a pissed off cat and the bite force is the same. So for my research both are likely to create deep infection. A play bite is less forceful, may still hurt the stupid softskinned human, but less likely to be infected

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

jd2008 — Wed, 22 Jul 2020 09:56:59 GMT

Good to hear Sarah Heath’s been of help. Would you be willing to share her response? I’d be really interested.

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Bob Russell — Wed, 22 Jul 2020 08:44:03 GMT

Still not completely clear what it is you are looking for.

Cat bites in humans are almost always to the hands (especially in practice). This means more risk of tendon involvement than muscle compared to most cat to cat interactions.

If you are after 'why do they do it?' then Sarah Heath would be the one to listen to!

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Iain Richards — Wed, 22 Jul 2020 08:28:54 GMT

Thanks, I have asked and got a good response from Sarah Heath's practice.

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

jd2008 — Wed, 22 Jul 2020 02:36:26 GMT

Honestly, I don't think there's any real, readily accessible evidence to support a meaningful answer to this. Far too many variables at play, for a start. Motivation is complex and will differ depending on the individual situation and circumstances. The emotions that drive behaviour (fear, rage etc. By the way, it looks like someone might be misinterpreting Panksepp (not you, Iain), but that's not unusual...) rarely exist in isolation of one another and the dominance of one emotion over another in any given situation has many variables - context, previous experience and so on.

I'm going to humbly suggest that this question would be better directed towards those more expert in this area, for example behavioural scientists and ethologists. You might be able to uncover some pertinent information regarding cat biting behaviour by taking a fairly wide trawl through the literature but it would be a big task and not necessarily easy to interpret accurately without a solid background in ethology.

And apropos of nothing relevant here, but Jaap Panskepp is a fascinating read, if you ever find yourself at a loose end.

Sorry, a completely unhelpful reply

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 21 Jul 2020 14:17:21 GMT

In that case I think they probably bite a human in much the same way as they'd bite another cat but it is likely just to be a single bite rather than multiple ones. My cat will bite me when she has had enough of being "played" with but those bites don't penetrate the skin; if I persisted playing with her then perhaps the next bite would be a firmer one.

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Iain Richards — Tue, 21 Jul 2020 12:11:51 GMT

No, and apologies for the confusion, I was on a deadline and foolishly typed poorly It relates to the force and therefore the possible innoculation of bacteria. Do cats bite us to bite and runaway (small) force or do they just bite as they would another cat that they are in a territorial dispute with? I'm getting responses that the motivation - fear/repulsion - is the same, so it illicites the same bite force - to tally different to play bites.

RE: Cat Bites on Humans

Kate Richardson — Tue, 21 Jul 2020 12:04:35 GMT

Are you asking for the reasons why they bite cats and why they bite humans?