Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Cool — Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:10:18 GMT

Thank you Rob. I have had my fair share of it but my views are similar to yours. I never noticed the difference in skin colour when I worked with foreigners in Nigeria but there was an obvious difference here in the UK. It does not bother me but its just a shame.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Bob Russell — Thu, 02 Jul 2020 12:48:36 GMT

Had a chat with my daughter last night and it seems she does consider herself in the 'black' category!!

I cannot accept the 'people of colour' tag. I have colour especially after a trip to Thailand. The rest of the time I am a washed out pink colour. Thankfully in my household skin colour is pretty much ignored unless I go beetroot red after cutting the grass in strong sunshine!

Thankfully all races, colours, creeds, orientation passed through our home pre-COVID without any form of discrimination.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 21:24:56 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/224013#224013"] because the extent, and the distances involved still seem relatively unprecedented[/quote]

I think it is more because of the way that we westerners were taught history. The various Greek mobs crossed seas in their known world to conquer and pillage, as did the Vikings who crossed seas and oceans to venture far and wide. The Japanese likewise. The Monguls and the Vandals were great travellers.

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/224013#224013"]colonialism on the colonised countries was more negative than positive[/quote]

That is a moot point. On one hand, the Indian sub-continent prior to British influence was not a fun place to be a peasant, especially if you were a woman but on the other if you were a native of Australia or New Zealand it seems that life was very much better before colonisation. Bear in mind that not everything can be blamed on Empire and the mother country. Free of empire, New Zealand developed and then practiced "biculturalism" well into the twentieth century and within my lifetime, Australia practised something as close to apartheid as makes no difference (white-only immigration and despicable aboriginal policies).

Regrettably, BLM looks like another of those 'movements' that burn bright but fade quickly. Its main fuel is bourgeoise consciences in need of salving. Soon, the privileged wailers and hand-wringers will move on to their next popular cause and little will have changed for the under-privileged. Such is life.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 20:36:17 GMT

I don't mean just the British Imperial project, but broadly thinking of the significant intensification of expansion by European powers in the 15-19th centuries (most marked in 18th and 19th, like you say) - simply because the extent, and the distances involved still seem relatively unprecedented. Like you say, it was by no means the first example of expansion, but most previous examples were mainly incremental expansions from a particular location into neighbouring/ surrounding lands, rather than a big "hop" across oceans (making sweeping generalisations again, of course!), and the race between European powers to acquire land and power before their neighbours could also appears relatively unprecedented.

It's not meant to be an example of "mea culpa" hand-wringing and white guilt (though I do personally feel that the impacts of imperialism/ colonialism on the colonised countries was more negative than positive), or an attempt to colour code history, I just think it's a mildly diverting thought experiment.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Malcolm Ness — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 20:03:50 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/224002#224002"] if it wasn't for European exploration and colonial expansion[/quote]

Do you mean just the British Imperial project of are you including all European colonial expansion from the Athenians and Spartans through the Vikings, the Romans and the Gauls then the Portuguese and Spanish Mariners not forgetting the French, German and Belgian colonial adventures of the 18c and 19c. All the while, similar was happening in Africa (check out the history of the spread of the Bantu languages) or Asia (Gengis Khan, the Moghuls, the Japanese subjugation of Korea and many, many others)?

Life, and history, is too complicated to be simplistically colour-coded.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 19:41:26 GMT

Yes, it's interesting to imagine what the world would be like today if it wasn't for European exploration and colonial expansion, but, for better or worse, we'll never know...

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Stephen Pointing — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 18:48:05 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223999#223999"]Stephen, I'd be interested to hear how much influence/ impact he thinks British/ colonial rule had on these rivalries, or whether he thinks that the transition away from those colonial governments was disorganised/ destabilising, and contributed to some of the ongoing issues today.[/quote]

Lucy - I will have that conversation the next time I'm attending an in-patient and our cleaner is in the building at the same time. Yes I'm sure that the map of Africa (drawn up by the colonial powers) will have had some impact on tribal rivalries in Africa but I'm pretty sure some of them will have pre-dated the arrival of Europeans in that continent. I think it is pretty well documented that certain African tribes were capturing members of other African tribes and selling them to the slave traders on the coast and that practice had existed well before European traders arrived on the scene. The Arabs had been carrying on that trade for centuries in both north and East Africa so the "system" was already well established by the time Europeans decided to become involved. It has been the sad fate of Africa to have been plundered through the ages for both its natural resources and its human resources.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 17:54:45 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223979#223979"]Black people are not black, white people are not white and acceptable terminology changes by the week.[/quote]

I think it's a little disingenuous to say that acceptable terminology changes *that* quickly, but you're absolutely right that there are no perfect terms - most black people/ brown people/ ethnic minorities/ people of colour would agree, and most probably have a preferred term, and those that they don't like that much, and those that they find downright offensive - though I suspect that comes down to the intent and the delivery as much as the word itself sometimes. Similar to your example with your niece, the use of the term brown people sounds very jarring to me, but it appears to have had a resurgence and a reclaiming from the very communities it has been used against in the past, mainly in a light hearted, jocular way.... but I still wouldn't use it to describe someone unless I knew it was the term they preferred (in the same way as I don't tend to describe someone from the LGBT community as queer unless I know it is their preferred term, since it's been used hurtfully in the past)

One of the difficulties with talking about issues like this is you, to a certain extent, have to make some sweeping generalisations about groups of people that are far from homogenous: the experiences of someone who is a first generation immigrant from Ghana, or Nigeria, or Barbados, or Jamaica will not be the same as each other and will not be the same as someone whose grandparents were immigrants, which will not be the same as the experience of someone who has migrated from Europe who has white skin but a strong accent (that Michael struggles to understand ). That doesn't mean it's not still worth trying to have an open mind. Approaching anything with respect and an open mind, and a willingness to listen strikes me as the most important thing...

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223987#223987"]The historical (and present day) problems in many African countries are not just as a result of the white/black issue but are often based on very long standing tribal rivalries. [/quote]

Stephen, I'd be interested to hear how much influence/ impact he thinks British/ colonial rule had on these rivalries, or whether he thinks that the transition away from those colonial governments was disorganised/ destabilising, and contributed to some of the ongoing issues today.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 17:35:18 GMT

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223970#223970"]Who exactly made this all about statues? Perhaps you're looking in the wrong direction. [/quote]

Perhaps I'm not explaining myself clearly, because that's exactly my point - I'm not trying to suggest that anti-racism protestors didn't "start it" - for want of a less childish term - but it's really not the focus of most, certainly not the activists I'm hearing from. Like Gillian mentioned, far more column inches on the subject are being generated by those opposed to the protests (or at least the actions of some protestors), and by the main stream media (I don't really like that term because I feel like it makes me sound like I think some mad person on twitter is a more accurate source of news, but there you go) which I think, deliberately or otherwise, means avoiding engaging with other, more important issues.

Some examples of things that people on the pro-BLM "side", anti-racism activists, ordinary BIPOC people etc etc are more interested in talking about than statues (a sample from friends, people I follow on social media, articles I have read etc, by no means meant to be an exhaustive list):

- the difference in maternal mortality rate (5x) and stillbirth (2x) between black women and white women in the UK.

- missing and murdered indigenous women

- positive vs negative representations of black fathers in the media (the "missing black fathers" trope)

- the problematic representation of black victims of police violence in the media (an example being the highlighting of the good works carried out by Elijah McClain, as if those deeds specifically made it worse that he died at the hands of police than a person like George Floyd, with a more chequered past)

- under-representation of black (and other ethnic minority) voices and faces in TV, films and publishing

- performative allyship

- under-representation of ethnic minorities (particularly women of colour) in senior management roles in a wide variety of businesses

- different disciplinary outcomes for black children in education, and the "school to prison" pipeline

- knife crime (especially in London)

Not many of them are talking about statues. Those that are are calling for, rather than the removal of statues, more representative and nuanced teaching of history in schools.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Stephen Pointing — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 15:04:14 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223979#223979"]I consider using the term black when it comes to race particularly difficult.[/quote]

I think that it is a shame that you feel that way Bob because a skin colour is no more than a descriptor in much the same way as you might say that person has got ginger hair and that one is blond. Even within the white skinned population we differentiate between people who are fair skinned from those who tan much more easily and if you observe closely there are different shades within the black community too. It would be strange not to use an obvious descriptive adjective when talking to someone about another person or object that they don't know - you'd say the white car, the red dress, the black jacket etc etc so why wouldn't you be happy to use that description of a person as well. As long as you are using the word as a description and not as an insult in some way - then I think it is fine to use it. We are rather fortunate down here to have a small community of Zimbabweans who originally came to remove the mines from the minefields and some of them have decided to stay on and settle here. The Falkland Islands, until very recently, was an overwhelmingly white community so the local people here have had to get used to having black faces in the community in a relatively short time span. On the whole it appears to have gone remarkably well and I haven't noticed any overt racism - although behind the scenes I expect some does exist. One of our cleaners is from Zimbabwe and I often chat to him if I come back to the surgery in the evening - including talking about racial issues - both between black and white but also how tribal issues impact on life back in Zimbabwe. The historical (and present day) problems in many African countries are not just as a result of the white/black issue but are often based on very long standing tribal rivalries.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Alistair Graham-Evans — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 11:36:20 GMT

I agree Bob.

I am guilty of discrimination - there are people I like and people I don’t like. My decision personally and when choosing who I employ is based on character rather than melanin or chromosomes.

Sorry if that seems a ridiculous over-simplification.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Stephen Pointing — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 10:25:05 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223974#223974"]Those with the loudest voices.[/quote]

The silent majority is rarely heard except when it comes to a referendum or a general election and then the results come as a massive surprise to the media, the metropolitan elite and to those who are constantly protesting about one issue or another.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Bob Russell — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 08:41:22 GMT

I feel very uncomfortable with terminology being spouted from all directions!

I consider using the term black when it comes to race particularly difficult. I find the term people of colour to be even more demeaning.

I know one of my nieces briefly associated herself with the term black but she is Thai/Dubai by genetics. That has long gone and she is more British than I am!

Black people are not black, white people are not white and acceptable terminology changes by the week.

I prefer nice and not-nice, far more useful!

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Clive Ansell — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 08:09:13 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223973#223973"]You're missing the point of the campaign Clive. Saying BLM isn't saying that other lives don't.[/quote]

I don't agree at all. Their lives don't matter anymore of any less than anyone else's.

I think using the word black is a mistake, and is racist in itself. If I started a campaign along the lines of white lives matter, or English lives matter, I would very soon be accused of racism.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 06:02:22 GMT

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223970#223970"]If they break the law then they should be subject to the consequences like any other citizen of the UK.[/quote]

They have been.

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223970#223970"]Who exactly made this all about statues[/quote]

The media and those who disagree with the BLM campaign? Those with the loudest voices.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 05:59:20 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223967#223967"]I don't particularly support the BLM campaign, because in my view all (well most) lives matter equally regardless of skin colour. Maybe the campaign should just be titled "lives matter", as "all" should be taken as read. [/quote]

You're missing the point of the campaign Clive. Saying BLM isn't saying that other lives don't. In the same way that 'Save the Tigers' isn't saying 'but other mammals aren't important at all'. It is possible to look at the injustices and problems affecting a single group without dismissing the others. Joining in with this 'but what about us' chant is missing the point, and reinforcing the racist view that this is black vs white - which it isn't.

I compare to those misogynists who managed to change the feminist message from one of women wanting equality to one of women wanting superiority. It was very effective ... it made feminism into a dirty word.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 22:29:57 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223968#223968"]It's about re-framing the protestors as either lawless hooligans, or as "typical woke liberals" who are focussed on something unimportant, so that we can ignore the points they are trying to make about the very real inequalities affecting society.[/quote]

Not at all. Very happy for them and any other group to protest about whatsoever they wish as long as they abide by the law. If they break the law then they should be subject to the consequences like any other citizen of the UK. Who exactly made this all about statues? Perhaps you're looking in the wrong direction.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 21:55:13 GMT

[quote userid="13196" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223964#223964"]It's not so much about the removal of the statues but how they are being removed or defaced.[/quote]

Given that the grand total of statues in the UK that have been removed by protestors seems to be....one? and the grand total of statues that have been defaced seems to be somewhere in the region of...two or three (perhaps? Maybe a dozen, at a generous estimate, assuming most only made it to local papers? Though almost all the articles I've seen have been about statues supposedly "under threat" rather than actually being damaged) and that the oh-so-atrocious damage to Churchill's statue looks like it would take about twenty minutes with a scrubbing brush or five with a pressure washer to put right, and that the same statue has been much, much more extensively graffiti-ed in the past without provoking the same sense of outrage, I tend to disagree with your point that this is about the rule of law and order or the correct way of doing things. It's about re-framing the protestors as either lawless hooligans, or as "typical woke liberals" who are focussed on something unimportant, so that we can ignore the points they are trying to make about the very real inequalities affecting society.

Honestly, if you're focussing on statues, you're doing it wrong.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Clive Ansell — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 21:10:54 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223965#223965"]What right do these people think they have in a so called democracy to decide which statues are OK and which are not?[/quote]

But, in a true democracy, don't we all have the right to choose what we like or dislike, or decide what is Ok and what is not, and voice that opinion in the form of lawful and peaceful protest. Should not include violence or vandalism of course.

I don't particularly support the BLM campaign, because in my view all (well most) lives matter equally regardless of skin colour. Maybe the campaign should just be titled "lives matter", as "all" should be taken as read.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Clive Ansell — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 21:00:46 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223960#223960"]Looking back in time for someone to blame is pointless. Dealing with injustice in the world today is plenty for us to get on with.[/quote]

That's my take on it.

I can't understand why folk are protesting about and pulling down statues of someone who died 300 years ago next year.

what has been, has been and gone, cannot and should not try and change history, just learn from it. Maybe they should direct their protests against modern forms of slavery and exploitation, including against the economic and political system that not only allow it, but actively encourage it.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Bob Russell — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:50:17 GMT

What right do these people think they have in a so called democracy to decide which statues are OK and which are not?

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:13:10 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223962#223962"]Absolutely true - and given the small number of people getting exercised about the removal of statues,[/quote]

It's not so much about the removal of the statues but how they are being removed or defaced. For those of us who believe in the rule of law and order there is a correct and an incorrect way of going about this kind of business - and allowing protest groups free rein to do as they please does not fit into that scenario. Today they may be toppling statues - which is of little concern to you - but tomorrow another group might be toppling something else which you might find more disturbing.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Lucy Fleming — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 12:53:00 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223960#223960"] Dealing with injustice in the world today is plenty for us to get on with.[/quote]

Absolutely true - and given the small number of people getting exercised about the removal of statues, and the somewhat larger but still relatively small number getting very exercised about "defending" those statues, the statue/ monument debate seems to be dominating the conversation much more than it should be as part of the wider issues...

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Bob Russell — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 12:23:36 GMT

A reflection on the belief they were property not people.

Looking back in time for someone to blame is pointless. Dealing with injustice in the world today is plenty for us to get on with.

RE: Racism, statues and the veterinary profession

Stephen Pointing — Tue, 30 Jun 2020 12:20:20 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29158/racism-statues-and-the-veterinary-profession/223958#223958"]Slavery just was! The powerful forcing their will on the weak. [/quote]

Still working my way through the "Sugar Barons" and interestingly even in the late 1600's there were quite a few people in Europe who were distinctly uncomfortable about the nature of the slave trade. Not surprisingly many of these had strong religious convictions - the Quakers in particular were quite vociferous on the subject. Strangely, however, their complaints were not so much about the keeping of slaves but how they were kept. They thought they should be treated humanely and well looked after.