Out of Hours and Pay

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Emily Rainbow — Wed, 10 Jun 2020 20:19:47 GMT

Steve you hit the nail on the head for me. Especially if I’ve been up all night on calvings and I’m working through from 8.30am Friday to 5pm Monday! I value my sanity more!

if clients know the vet was getting extra per call out I can already hear the cries of profiteering... and we can’t even use the excuse that the business needs to cover costs!

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 10 Jun 2020 19:33:46 GMT

If I have to work the day before the night duty and the day after, I'm not happy seeing non emergency cases regardless of 'incentive'

If I'm on a proper night shift, I would see anything quite happily providing I wasn't already dealing with genuine emergencies. again, regardless of incentive

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Clive Ansell — Wed, 10 Jun 2020 09:30:43 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/29144/out-of-hours-and-pay/223326"]

Busybee said:
But playing devil's advocate, what if they just wanted advice or weren't sure about being seen but the vet insisted on it so they could get an extra £100 and 'scared' the client into being seen ooh. Then the owner complained after realising it wasn't a real emergency.

I think you may have hit upon the business model of a chain of OOH providers ;-)

[/quote]

You might think that; I couldn't possibly comment

When I worked in OOH clinics sometime ago, I would always try and give what I considered to be honest advice. I did not chase revenue. If I thought an animal needed to be seen that is what I would advise, likewise if I thought they did not. If a client demanded to be seen, but I thought it was not necessary, I would give the necessary estimates and see them, unless it was just stupid or not possible.

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Clive Ansell — Wed, 10 Jun 2020 09:24:36 GMT

[quote userid="8605" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/29144/out-of-hours-and-pay/223320"]f the client insists on having their dog's anal glands expressed at midnight and the vet would get £100 then fine.[/quote]

Fine if working in an OOH clinic where one is there and on duty anyway. I've done many, advise that not an emergency and can wait until normal hours, but will do if really wants them doing. Advise of costs, usual puts them off. Similar with nail clips.

When I used to do on call, at home but only attended if needed I would often refuse this sort of nonsense. I would maintain that I was on call, in addition to having just worked a 10 to 12 hour day, and it is strictly emergencies only!

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Dinu Catilina — Tue, 09 Jun 2020 21:42:21 GMT

[quote userid="4181" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/29144/out-of-hours-and-pay/223357"]If your 1100 includes VAT, then net of VAT, you take off 150+400+employer's NI+employer's pension contribution, take off material costs, take off contribution to fixed costs, and what's left isn't much?[/quote]

Not at all I'm afraid. As we don't give a day off after being on call we decided to keep it like this as long as we don't make a loss. Staff is indeed very happy with it and our clients don't complain either.

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Rob Loxley — Tue, 09 Jun 2020 18:41:32 GMT

[quote userid="9239" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/29144/out-of-hours-and-pay/223311"]So for a caesarian out of hours which is 1100 the nurse gets 150 and the vet gets 400[/quote]

If your 1100 includes VAT, then net of VAT, you take off 150+400+employer's NI+employer's pension contribution, take off material costs, take off contribution to fixed costs, and what's left isn't much?

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Jill Butterworth — Mon, 08 Jun 2020 10:05:10 GMT

This discussion is illustrating how to teach a vet to put a toe into self employment and understand the risks and conundrums business owners take and shield them from with their regular salary. In general: most people will do extra if they are rewarded, but soon get disillusioned if it happens constantly and they get nothing for it.

It's supply and demand. I've been pulled from my bed for all manner of stupid (non emergency) reasons, and not been paid extra, because I've been afraid of the greater (perceived) risk of not seeing a client and the complaints that ensue. Try going back to sleep after a conversation about an RTA where the owner has no money and declines when they hear the OOH fee. You might as well get up anyway and fear the wrath of management who complain that you 'must get payment'.

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Beats — Mon, 08 Jun 2020 09:56:33 GMT

[quote userid="8605" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/29144/out-of-hours-and-pay/223320"]But playing devil's advocate, what if they just wanted advice or weren't sure about being seen but the vet insisted on it so they could get an extra £100 and 'scared' the client into being seen ooh. Then the owner complained after realising it wasn't a real emergency.[/quote]

I think you may have hit upon the business model of a chain of OOH providers ;-)

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Busybee — Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:57:18 GMT

I understand what Emily is saying. If the client insists on having their dog's anal glands expressed at midnight and the vet would get £100 then fine. But playing devil's advocate, what if they just wanted advice or weren't sure about being seen but the vet insisted on it so they could get an extra £100 and 'scared' the client into being seen ooh. Then the owner complained after realising it wasn't a real emergency.

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Dinu Catilina — Sun, 07 Jun 2020 21:18:56 GMT

[quote userid="7232" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/29144/out-of-hours-and-pay/223318"]if a client wishes to be seen, is prepared to pay for it what’s wrong with every case being seen? I don’t understand the problem. I’d be comfortable squeezing an ag at midnight for £100 a time! [/quote]

Exactly. Also, in my few shifts with VetsNow I rarely seen a true emergency. And clients are more likely to complain about not being seen than being seen.

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Mark Holmes — Sun, 07 Jun 2020 20:43:40 GMT

[quote userid="11232" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/29144/out-of-hours-and-pay/223316"]

Whilst a payment per client seen OOH seems very nice from a vets perspective I could see it leading to encouragement of non-emergency cases being seen when they didn’t really need to...

if vets (and nurses) are paid a proportionate salary this extra ‘top up’ shouldn’t be necessary.

[/quote]

if a client wishes to be seen, is prepared to pay for it what’s wrong with every case being seen? I don’t understand the problem. I’d be comfortable squeezing an ag at midnight for £100 a time!

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

janine redman — Sun, 07 Jun 2020 19:15:47 GMT

Vets get about £30 - £35 per call out and an additional £25 per hour for procedures . This seems to be enough of an encouragement to see cases without trying to pull in cases which do not need to be seen

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Emily Rainbow — Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:44:10 GMT

Whilst a payment per client seen OOH seems very nice from a vets perspective I could see it leading to encouragement of non-emergency cases being seen when they didn’t really need to...

if vets (and nurses) are paid a proportionate salary this extra ‘top up’ shouldn’t be necessary.

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Jill Butterworth — Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:17:55 GMT

I don't think you can pay 'too much' if you want motivated staff, and the practice can afford it. Some vets would take a pay cut to do no OOH: it depends on their circumstances/mental health/stress levels/confidence etc, but make sure you pay the nurses generously too, especially as they are not on site. I don't think its unreasonable to increase fees in these post Covid times, things are harder and someone needs to assist your vets and its best to be your biosecure team, not a client (ref UK of course).

I used to regularly do an OOH locum job with a very generous fee structure for vets, but not nurses, and I had a hell of a job to get them to come out and assist and it caused resentment on both sides.

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Dinu Catilina — Sun, 07 Jun 2020 15:20:39 GMT

Our vets get the call out fee=100 pounds plus 50% of the surgical procedure fee or time.

Nurse get 100 pounds for call out and another 50 pounds if it's surgery.

So for a caesarian out of hours which is 1100 the nurse gets 150 and the vet gets 400.

Tax comes out as normal.

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

Mark Holmes — Sun, 07 Jun 2020 15:14:08 GMT

50% of what?? I would be on call every night for £100 a call out!!

RE: Out of Hours and Pay

janine redman — Sun, 07 Jun 2020 14:27:04 GMT

We have a vet out of hours call out fee and the vet gets about 50% of the fee as above . Then there is a supplement per hour of vets time which is in addition to the normal cost of procedures. This goes to the vets .

there is a nurse out of hours call out fee , 1.5 units for getting called out and 1unit per hour or part thereafter . Split between however many patients are seen . If there are high maintenance in-patients they get paid the call out and initial and supplements then additional TOIL if they stay overnight or several hours