Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Thomas Johnson — Thu, 04 Jun 2020 08:08:57 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223225"]

Speaking as a vet working for IVC, it's slightly different than an internship.

The IVC 'Graduate Academy' is a 2 year structured CPD course. New graduates get a job at a practice, then enrol on the academy. Once the academy is finished, they don't have to move/leave their current job (unless they want to) like an classic internship where there is no job once it's finished.

[/quote]

As an IVC practice we have offered a job to a 2020 graduate through the IVC Graduate Academy. Applications are made centrally through IVC, but the applicant chooses which IVC practices taking part in the program they would like to apply to. Once the practice receives the application they are then responsible for arranging interviews and deciding who to offer the job to. The job and structured CPD program are part of a package, it comes with a decent salary, and as Anthony says the new graduate's employment isn't time limited, they continue to be employed by the practice at the end of the 2 year program.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Anthony Dennison — Wed, 03 Jun 2020 12:35:47 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223176"]Both IVC and I believe CVS offer an internship[/quote]

Speaking as a vet working for IVC, it's slightly different than an internship.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Alastair Welch — Mon, 01 Jun 2020 21:15:57 GMT

Arlo,

I think your point about a smaller rather than larger building is a very valid question. Regardless of the size of the building I really think it is beholden on the college to cut its coat according to its cloth, we need a less expensive home not a dearer one. We are a small and relatively less well off profession compared to many, and the idea of spending what is likely to be in excess of £10M on a new building when many of the fee payers face finical hardship is obscene.

I had hoped that Chris Barker would have replied to clear up the confusion with regards to the ownership of Belgravia House but I ended up spending £3 with the land registry confining that RCVS bought it for £2.38M (without borrowing) in 2006. The last set of financial data published by the college have the 'target level of reserves' of £8.1M ,the actual level of reserves were substantially greater than this, in fact (not including Belgravia House) these were given book value of £16.7M.

The college is holding way in excess of the target level of reserves and I do not think it unreasonable to ask why? The papers published associated with Thursday's RCVS Council meeting detail:

Estate Strategy update

21. Confidential information is available in the classified appendix at paragraphs 5-6.

So sadly we are still in the dark. I have a horrible fear that we will wake up one day to discover that the college have splurged a vast quantity of their members money on a swanky new London residence without us knowing anything about it.

Why don't any of the RCVS Council who subscribe to VetSurgeon.org want to talk about it? It sounds like the basis of a good story, perhaps you could enquire of the college what exactly their 'Estates strategy' is and why is it so secret?

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Bob Russell — Mon, 01 Jun 2020 10:56:23 GMT

The British Embassy in Bangkok was a beautiful building in wonderful grounds. The Union Flag was proudly flying and all was well with the world.

It has now been moved to a tower block and the old building is (as far as I know) sold. Now look at the world!

If the British embassy can move to an ordinary office building then so can the RCVS. It does not have to be central London. Basingstoke sounds nice!

My home broadband has been ticking over around 0.8 Mbps recently (should be over 25) so not all of us have the benefit of reliable broadband.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 01 Jun 2020 10:36:00 GMT

[quote userid="6353" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223157"]All of which could/should/will be re-examined after both the stock market fall and the COVID experience, when many RCVS committee meetings have been successfully and remotely achieved at greatly reduced cost for travel/subsistence. Whether Council meetings can be run adequately this way I doubt, but we'll have a better idea after next week when the first remote Council meeting is being held. There are some substantial issues up for debate and it will be interesting to see what quality of debate can be achieved in a remote meeting.[/quote]

I may be stating the obvious, but I think it will be important to judge whether or not Council meetings can be held remotely based on forecast improvements in remote conferencing ... not just what is available right now.

My experience of it right now is that it's a bit of a mixed bag. Works GREAT for one-to-one meetings, especially when both ends have a strong internet connection. But the more people, the more unwieldy it becomes. People get cut off. Someone always has a bad connection. It's difficult to know when to speak.

12 months from now, I'm sure things will be very different. And there are solutions already available to give Council members fast enough broadband for it to work properly.

And with more people likely to spend more time working from home, the College could presumably have a smaller office, not a bigger one.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Alastair Welch — Sun, 31 May 2020 19:33:18 GMT

The college have embarked on a gradual and continued expansion in what they do. The extra bits may well be self funding but they require extra bodies and extra space to work. It is worth pointing out that they continue to fail to meet their targets in terms of investigating concerns in a timely manner and you might think they would focus on this but seemingly not.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 31 May 2020 19:05:48 GMT

[quote userid="12930" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223185"]I may regret asking this... but why has the College grown substantially in size?[/quote]

Isn't it to house all those investigators?

Personally I feel the process is far too easy to make a complaint, just fill in 2 sides of an online document. The RCVS have to investigate that's not their problem, but there should be some come back / charge associated with it to the plaintiff. Isn't there a country that asks for monies?

Neil

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Beats — Sun, 31 May 2020 19:01:02 GMT

[quote userid="6897" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223183"]the needs of the College as we have grown substantially in size[/quote]

I may regret asking this... but why has the College grown substantially in size?

I have no problem with it being in London, though. Indeed the further away and remote from me the better :-)

It has always somewhat reassured me (rightly or wrongly) that it is highly unlikely any aggrieved party would ever be so aggrieved as to bother to make the journey all the way to London to complain about me in person at a disciplinary hearing - that's got to stack the odds in my favour :-)

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

bob lehner — Sun, 31 May 2020 17:49:31 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223168"]It was my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that Belgravia House is owned by the college outright (including holding the freehold)[/quote]

From RCVS NEWS:

''10 July 2019

The RCVS, currently based at Belgravia House (62-64 Horseferry Road, London), is inviting tenders for finding a new building for the College.

The current building, a freehold property in Westminster, is no longer suitable to meet the needs of the College as we have grown substantially in size.''

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 31 May 2020 15:39:58 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223175"]the need for a sort of mentoring/internship/half-way-house is urgent[/quote]

Both IVC and I believe CVS offer an internship. IVC have specified CPD days to get them all together which is a really good thing as it helps with isolation. Vets Now also offer an internship where they train you via Cutting Edge, but you have to stay with the company for a period afterwards, much like a friend who trained to become a doctor with the RAF, but then had to serve 7 years afterwards, not a bad deal.

Neil

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Anthony Todd — Sun, 31 May 2020 15:21:41 GMT

The nub is the difference between "need" and "profit". Charities need funds, in my case to fly the trustees more than once a year,business class, to see, basically, their old mates. I flew business too!.

The spec for the charities' new computer system to do even basic bookkeeping and correspondence was an inch thick. [they all used carbon paper and Royal Enfield sit-up-and-beg typewriters and reams of carbon paper overseas]

The waste was biblical and staggering! The need also biblical and staggering!!

Businesses only survive on profit so the new-graduate [like all have been, cheap, legally qualified never, done a cat spay., and pretty inept at everything else, makes total business sense!

BUT, I digress, the need for a sort of mentoring/internship/half-way-house is urgent and I still can only see the "charities" including the RCVS being the avenue.

The NHS model sounds perfect to me.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 31 May 2020 14:46:30 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223171"]Maybe not a profit as such, but they do need to make money to maintain a viable business.[/quote]

Clarities have to be a business. What does the PDSA employ 1500 staff? to include management not on the frontline. You only have to open the papers today to see charities appealing for monies. London Zoo have joined in, with no visitors and 20.000 animals to feed the RSPCA and PDSA will be in competition for monies from a nation that will be poorer in the most part

Neil

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 31 May 2020 14:33:26 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223167"]Charities and universities and the RCVS don't actually, or ever, have to make a profit either.[/quote]

Maybe not a profit as such, but they do need to make money to maintain a viable business. Money lost in one area needs to be found from another area. Training does cost money.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 31 May 2020 14:13:33 GMT

Like David a back of the envelope calculation

There are 1000 graduates qualifying a year, there or thereabouts. £3million is £3000 apiece which I don't feel will go very far at all

Gill has in this post eluded to other sectors of the profession that are looking at careers afresh. Locums are hurting very badly at the moment especially those who run a Ltd Company. Some vets will be laid off, others will have job offers removed having applied preCOVID.

I qualified in 1990, at a time of economic depression, so wages and opportunities were lower (but only 350 vets qualified)

There are so many additional pressures at the moment, so why ask the RCVS to bail out new graduates when in reality they have a top science degree and have the ability to turn their hand to other careers?

Neil

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Alastair Welch — Sun, 31 May 2020 13:30:57 GMT

Chris,

It was my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that Belgravia House is owned by the college outright (including holding the freehold). The building was purchased with the proceeds of the sale of the remaining lease on Red Lion Square in the mid 90's (and I believe there was some approx £1M extra left after the purchase?). It is my belief that the rules are set such that a reserve of around £8M is required for the 'unforeseen disaster' that you describe and at the turn of the year the reserves (cash and investments) but not including Belgravia House stood at around £17M (I think that does not include the surplus from the current year, but as ever with accountants the truth is hard to find). That is to say the reserve are running at around double the value that has been deemed as 'prudent'.

You are correct that a paradigm shift is required but the argument that was used 20 years ago (when purchase of a property in the M40 corridor was actively considered) that the college needed to be in London to lobby politicians in DEFRA or presumably MAFF back then are no longer valid. Modern methods of communication mean being in central London is simply vainglorious, and is far beyond the modest means of what is a small and relatively poor profession (the average earnings of VS compared to such prime real estate is rather incongruous don't you think?) . Rather than plough tens of £M into a London office move to Reading, Birmingham or Manchester, and if required retain a modest London office. The Covid situation shows us that much of the work can be done remotely so I don't believe a bigger building is required. Moving from London might result in the loss of some as you put it 'corporate knowledge' but another way of looking at is that they haven't been doing too well recently anyway so some new blood might not be a bad thing. As I understand things potential purchasers have viewed Belgravia House and the RCVS have made an offer (rejected) on another property, perhaps you could confirm?

There might be no provision in the Act but lets be honest, they bend the rules to fund projects, and use the Charter to meet their ends (it wasn't that long ago the idea of interim suspension was being floated (and that certainly isn't in the Act), where there's a will theres a way. I may be way off the mark but my fear is that we will look back and see 2020 graduates as a lost generation and if we can help then perhaps we should.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Anthony Todd — Sun, 31 May 2020 13:21:26 GMT

[quote userid="2457" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223163"] Why would it be more viable in a charity setting if there are significant costs involved?[/quote]

As an optician of my acquaintance said, when berated by a lady about the price of her designer frames, the reason, madam, is "profit".!

Charities and universities and the RCVS don't actually, or ever, have to make a profit either.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Jill Butterworth — Sun, 31 May 2020 13:02:09 GMT

Anecdotally, I have noticed that the effects of covid restrictions on a lot of vets has been a leaning towards early retirement/change of career, either because furlough has given them unexpected quality time with family, or due to the other extreme: they've burnt out because they've been under staffed and can't wait to stop. If this happens to a significant degree, then hopefully new graduates will be able to find work, albeit with fewer middle aged mentors.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Gillian Mostyn — Sun, 31 May 2020 11:14:11 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223162"]Sure, which is where the charities and unis [with facilities] come in. I can't see it being viable in many "commercial" practices.[/quote]

I don't understand ... Why would it be more viable in a charity setting if there are significant costs involved? Surely they have even less income, especially at the moment. They still have to run as a business, albeit with a different income stream to private practice.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Anthony Todd — Sun, 31 May 2020 09:56:10 GMT

[quote userid="10320" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223161"] I believe) but would significantly increase costs. [/quote]

Sure, which is where the charities and unis [with facilities] come in. I can't see it being viable in many "commercial" practices.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Lucy Fleming — Sun, 31 May 2020 09:07:59 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223160"]It seems to me that this model could work with vets? [/quote]

It would work I'm sure (indeed is the model for residency/ specialist training at least as far as surgery is concerned, I believe) but would significantly increase costs. While I'm not advocating for under-charging, I equally wouldn't want to see pet ownership priced completely out of reach of those on modest incomes.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Anthony Todd — Sun, 31 May 2020 08:45:19 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates/223155"]Am I missing something here? is a new graduate not good to go and be employable on day one ? if not maybe the schools should pick up the tab for further training and mentoring?[/quote]

Actually the NHS does it all the time! A friend had a major bowel resection and we met, and were seen by the surgeon who was personable, caring and [his father was a vet...]

He had a "team", 3 doctors/surgeons, and at least 3 nurses as well as the top man. [ Watford General faultless medical and surgical service!!]

I'd be surprised if one of the team didn't do some of the surgery with the consultant "available", certainly the clip-up at the end.

He also operates at the local Spire where, although he does all the surgery, at private fees, he doesn't have qualified surgical help.

It seems to me that this model could work with vets?

The larger centres, both "private" and charity could do this, thereby training the less experienced, but qualified, gradually, without throwing a new grad in at the deep end on day one.

Doubt if the corporates would like to pay for two vets when one [new grad.] is legally qualified to do anything and everything though!

Perhaps financially assisted by the RCVS, with that massive pile gaining only "safe" interest rates??

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Chris Barker — Sun, 31 May 2020 08:26:15 GMT

Ok the view from the RCVS The reserves. Financial rules/prudence requires a certain level of reserves in case of unforeseen disasters/reduction in future income (eg. vets not paying all their retention fees/postponing their retention fees......) The RCVS year is geared around all the fees arriving in April and you may have noticed that this year they didn't. And remember that much of the RCVS reserves is not held in cash but is invested; so from the level quoted I think you can knock a million or so consequent to the recent fall in the stock market and with the forthcoming downturn/recession.

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates"]about £10M with no obvious purpose[/quote]

No, plenty of purpose Belgravia House is ageing and too small Even to stay there will mean multimillion refurbishment The RCVS has to have a home - it is a statutory body and has to have a base Staying or moving - either way there is a cost And the lease on Belgravia House will not last forever, and when it lapses so will its book value to the College

Why London? The arguments are - close to DEFRA our governing Ministry, most of the staff live there (or within commuting distance) and a massive amount of corporate knowledge could be lost if staff choose not to relocate if the RCVS were to do so, London is a hub for transport of Councillors from all across the country (and we do not want/need a SE-centric Council), and central London is preferred due to the problem of adding yet more travelling and delay at peak times of day should the RCVS be out-east or out-west of the centre

All of which could/should/will be re-examined after both the stock market fall and the COVID experience, when many RCVS committee meetings have been successfully and remotely achieved at greatly reduced cost for travel/subsistence. Whether Council meetings can be run adequately this way I doubt, but we'll have a better idea after next week when the first remote Council meeting is being held. There are some substantial issues up for debate and it will be interesting to see what quality of debate can be achieved in a remote meeting.

Outright purchase of a suitable property In London, even with the current reserves plus money from the sale of the Belgravia House lease, could still leave the RCVS with a substantial mortgage - by looking elsewhere (B'ham Oxford, where ever) the RCVS could get more for its money but with the problematic consequences outlined above. For the College to look outside London will require a paradigm shift.

As for using the reserves to support, in any meaningful manner, a substantial number of new graduates.... There is no provision in the Veterinary Surgeons Act for the RCVS as Regulator to use money received from retention fees in this way; however, under its Charter powers the RCVS as Royal College has been able to support many smaller initiatives (eg.Mind Matters etc) But I think it would find it would find it very difficult indeed to use reserves already ear-marked for a different purpose to support initiatives at the level suggested and for a very restricted portion of the MsRCVS 'electorate'.....

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Beats — Sun, 31 May 2020 08:15:34 GMT

The practice I work in tends to take on a new graduate (often a final year student that was seeing practice in the preceding year) over July/August to allow overlap with vet holidays (2 vets off at a time).

They are, without exception, excellent. Equivalent to an experienced vet - obviously not - but excellent nonethless and certainly not a burden (well after a week anyway).

That said, I think you get out what you put in. If we didn't teach them to spay a bitch or let them do consults while a student, then they would not magically know on graduating.

I am not sure if this year's graduate-to-be will be starting or not, however.

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Clive Ansell — Sun, 31 May 2020 06:37:54 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates"]The question then is what is college going to do with all of this extra cash. Even if they stick to the figure to be held in reserve (which I think is about £8M), they (we) have about £10M with no obvious purpose. [/quote]

Maybe it should be (re)distributed and given back to the members' ? it is our money after all.

A fund could be set up to help those who have been adversely affected by the current crisis, in the forms of grants or repayable loans?

Am I missing something here? is a new graduate not good to go and be employable on day one ? if not maybe the schools should pick up the tab for further training and mentoring?

RE: Helping 2020 Veterinary graduates

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Sun, 31 May 2020 01:35:40 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29133/helping-2020-veterinary-graduates"]It is my belief that by creating a new-graduate 'grant' scheme the college could have a massive impact on both 2020 graduates and the wider profession. What I would envisage is the college's giving practices cash grants to hire 2020 graduates (potentially it could run for more than 1 year) and help them through some form of 'intern' programme. If lets for instance say the college were to offer 300 grants of £10k each to practices hiring a 2020 graduate, this would help ensure a large enough portion of the 2020 cohort get a grant aided job whilst the market would hopefully suck up the rest. I am sure there will be objections and flaws and there would need to be some objective criteria to ensure that the programmes offered were genuinely going to provide a positive learning environment to help graduates to process in their career (perhaps restricted to practices who have established intern programmes).[/quote]

I'm not dismissing your idea without serious consideration, but the idea of our Royal College handing out 3 million pounds of our money to subsidise 300 selected big practices, shall we say sticks in the craw.