Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Neil Wheadon — Sun, 24 May 2020 09:47:33 GMT

Just for that I'll resurrect the specific thread, just need to think of something

Neil

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 May 2020 18:15:00 GMT

[quote userid="8958" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222883"]As bad as BREXIT[/quote]

or bike riding!? in jest......

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 May 2020 18:13:45 GMT

Fair enough, suits me....

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Neil Wheadon — Sat, 23 May 2020 17:26:16 GMT

Hi Guys

You have your own thread, can you stick to that one?

As bad as BREXIT

Neil

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Sat, 23 May 2020 17:22:53 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222858"]Well, you're wrong. I'm going to be blunt now because you don't seem to be getting it.[/quote]

I'll have another try, in basic form:.

Without the salt [??] of struvite or oxalate in urine there is absolutely no chance at all of getting crystals or stones of oxalate or struvite..

[Can we, at least, agree on that? this isn't Facebook, so no abuse please, stick to the science and the basic chemical facts.]

These come from chemicals consumed in food, then into urine and it's manifestation depends on temp, pH and concentrations all of which [apart from temp,??] can be varied by diet and water intake [dilution].

The key element for struvite is Magnesium, as the ion Mg++, so lowering that, or eliminating it in the diet, [as Jackson proved years ago] prevents their production.

All I know about oxalate is it is present in high concentration in cereals, so obviously reducing them in a cat's diet should, and will, prevent their formation.

That's probably enough for one day, but don't moan or attack me, attack the facts!

There may be a way-round which would delight me, and cats united 'cos FUS isn't nice for animals or man.

PS It is eye-opening to me how respectable research, by apparent leading authorities produces a paper or more, which dances around the fundamentals and expands the incidentals then it's cited as evidence in support........

Sorry again Arlo, but if I/we/others. can get this across, to the chagrin of the protagonists, and employed vets, we may help loads of painful cats

[and I sympathise!]

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 22 May 2020 14:27:49 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222851"]I stick by what I said and continue to say [/quote]

Well, you're wrong. I'm going to be blunt now because you don't seem to be getting it.

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222851"]By struv or ox I mean the chemical +- the crystals or stones ie in solid and/or dissolved form.[/quote]

I'm struggling to get my head around this sentence as it doesn't make sense. So even if there isn't crystalluria you think just the presence of oxalate, Calcium and Magnesium ions causes cystitis? 'the chemical +/- the crystals or stones in solid and or dissolved form' basically describes any urine.

There isn't an issue if these components are in solution because all the components are normally excreted by the kidneys. It isn't going to cause irritation or problems. It is only an issue if the crystals precipitate and then aggregate together to form uroliths (solid stones). If this is your point you are trying to argue, I think there may have been some confusion in the way you have tried to express yourself.

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222851"]But , after that unnecessary spat[/quote]

You are the catalyst to the issue Tony. Everyone else was in agreement. The spay was caused by your opinion and your unwavering beliefs.

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222851"]let's try and find solutions [ha,ha of low SG too] to the undoubtedly permanent problem of precipitation of chemicals in cats on cereal based diets.[/quote]

Already been discussed in the cystitis thread. I've already given you links but you dismissed them at the time saying they were just all about presenting clinical signs and treatment options but didn't answer the 'vital' question of magnesium ions.

I'm not sure I can be bothered to argue with you or contribute to this thread anymore. It's not good for my blood pressure, or my mood, and it's not educational for anyone because what we have talked about is common knowledge and applied in veterinary practice today, which you cannot seem to accept.

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Fri, 22 May 2020 12:09:48 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222842"]Not 100%, but a high majority. This has been shown to be because a higher fluid intake lowers the risk of oxalate crystal formation. Not disputing that diet has changed things.[/quote]

We are, or some are, arguing and still getting it wrong. I stick by what I said and continue to say BUT:

By struv or ox I mean the chemical +- the crystals or stones ie in solid and/or dissolved form.

But, BTW, show me a report of oxalate ion, molecule, crystal, or stone in a cat on a totally meaty diet please.

But , after that unnecessary spat, let's try and find solutions [ha,ha of low SG too] to the undoubtedly permanent problem of precipitation of chemicals in cats on cereal based diets.

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 22 May 2020 09:40:24 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222814"]

Arlo Guthrie said:
. Cystitis in cats is caused by crystals of either oxalate or struvite'

Sorry Arlo oxalate and struvite are not the same..... as I said in 1.

[/quote]

We're not highlighting the fact you think both crystals are present. You said all cases of cystitis are caused by struvite OR oxalate. Which is not the case - everyone has been trying to explain to you not all cases of cystitis have crystalluria but you can't seem to accept it.

So when you say

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222814"]And confirmed with "I say 100% of cases of FUS are caused by Struv/ox"[/quote]

It just confirms that you either are not understanding what we are trying to explain to you, or refuse to accept it.

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222814"]Mind you before dried food I believe 100% were, indeed, struvite.[/quote]

Not 100%, but a high majority. This has been shown to be because a higher fluid intake lowers the risk of oxalate crystal formation. Not disputing that diet has changed things.

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Thu, 21 May 2020 14:04:27 GMT

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222813"]I think this is a little offensive.[/quote]

Not offensive just facts and yes, we all missed hyperthyroid cats but we didn't see so many diabetics [or perhaps that was because they were all un-diagnosed hyper-thyroids... [joke] perhaps not far from the truth 'cos a certain Neil L in the practice diagnosed a lot before any of us got any...!!

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Thu, 21 May 2020 13:50:34 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222812"]. Cystitis in cats is caused by crystals of either oxalate or struvite' [/quote]

Sorry Arlo oxalate and struvite are not the same..... as I said in 1.

And confirmed with "I say 100% of cases of FUS are caused by Struv/ox"

Mind you before dried food I believe 100% were, indeed, struvite.

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 21 May 2020 13:47:00 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222811"]Crikey, cats look the same to me, sleek and lithe, miaow the same, breathe the same, scratch me the same, purr the same etc. etc.[/quote]

I think this is a little offensive. You haven't been in practice for almost a decade. What happens in a veterinary practice now compared to then is completely different.

And veterinary medicine has advanced so far that although the cats look the same, we have been discovering new conditions regularly over this time. When you qualifies, hyperthyroidism didn't exist.

Then again, cats were expected to live for 12-14 years. Now cats are regularly living until 20 or longer.

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 21 May 2020 13:24:20 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222810"]

As is obvious from all my postings and discussions struvite is NOW DEFINITELY NOT the sole cause of FLUDT or any of the other names, but it probably was when the diet was designed for a carnivore.

I never said or implied it was!

[/quote]

Um, looks like you did to me:

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222806"]

'1. Cystitis in cats is caused by crystals of either oxalate or struvite'

'4. If the chemicals/crystals in urethral plugs or urine are never looked for then, obviously the diagnosis will never be made.'

'I say 100% of cases of FUS are caused by Struv/ox'

'Sorry, 99 times out of 98 there are, or have been, crystals or stones amongst the plug.'

[/quote]

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Thu, 21 May 2020 13:16:39 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222800"]We have a very different cohort of cats today than we had 20-30 years ago. A lot has changed[/quote]

Crikey, cats look the same to me, sleek and lithe, miaow the same, breathe the same, scratch me the same, purr the same etc. etc.

Um, what has changed, couldn't be what they eat? Nah, everyone knows how to feed a carnivore, they eat other animals and fish if they can.

But, wait a minute.....

[sorry Arlo, but you understand.. ]

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Thu, 21 May 2020 13:12:04 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222800"]I don’t disagree that diet plays a role but I do disagree that struvite crystals are the sole cause of all cases of FLUTD even when they are not present in a fresh, or a cooled sample.[/quote]

I never said or implied it was!

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 21 May 2020 13:03:02 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222798"]Meanwhile I was reading it and thinking that it was all flying over my head, and wondering whether the discussion fell into the usual steriod-type debate TT vs the rest of the world, or whether it was actually developing into a discussion that might be food for thought, or interesting to someone reading up on the subject etc. I am not qualified to judge![/quote][quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222800"]

Arlo, FLUTD has been a subject of much research throughout the world- google Danielle Gunn-Moore or Tony Buffingtons work to mention just 2.

I don’t disagree that diet plays a role but I do disagree that struvite crystals are the sole cause of all cases of FLUTD even when they are not present in a fresh, or a cooled sample. Questioning research is always good and no-one I know thinks we have all the answers but if it was as black and white as Anthony suggests then the very clever people above would have figured that out a long time ago. We have a very different cohort of cats today than we had 20-30 years ago. A lot has changed

[/quote]

Er Kate Richardson I guess that's a no, then!

[quote userid="11308" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222806"]Ahem....[/quote]

LOL. Game, set and match.

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Dennison — Thu, 21 May 2020 12:38:38 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222802"]Who ever said it was, certainly not me. [/quote]

Ahem....

'1. Cystitis in cats is caused by crystals of either oxalate or struvite'

'4. If the chemicals/crystals in urethral plugs or urine are never looked for then, obviously the diagnosis will never be made.'

'I say 100% of cases of FUS are caused by Struv/ox'

'Sorry, 99 times out of 98 there are, or have been, crystals or stones amongst the plug.'

(all by Tony from his thread on cystitis)

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Thu, 21 May 2020 11:23:52 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222800"] I do disagree that struvite crystals are the sole cause of all cases of FLUTD [/quote]

Who ever said it was, certainly not me.

It may have been about 30 years ago when meaty diets, including fish, were the sole cat food and some cats, "stone-formers" , for some reason ppted struvite.

There were no oxalate but that all changed with cereal, Go Cat, and the clones.

Beginning to think that the thread title of "FU" might encompass a wider spectrum of opinion, evidence. and comments?

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Kate Richardson — Thu, 21 May 2020 11:11:40 GMT

Arlo, FLUTD has been a subject of much research throughout the world- google Danielle Gunn-Moore or Tony Buffingtons work to mention just 2.

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 21 May 2020 10:30:01 GMT

[quote userid="5904" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222797"]Not really, hopefully others may learn a bit more about FUS and FLUDT and "stress" and "blocked cats" and "urethral spasm[/quote]

Well, I know I've learned more about FUS and FLUDT than I ever thought I would

Must say, fair dos to Anthony Todd on this occasion, because it is his own thread, which everyone can decide whether or not to participate in, so I am more relaxed about that than when other threads get hijacked!

Meanwhile I was reading it and thinking that it was all flying over my head, and wondering whether the discussion fell into the usual steriod-type debate TT vs the rest of the world, or whether it was actually developing into a discussion that might be food for thought, or interesting to someone reading up on the subject etc. I am not qualified to judge!

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Thu, 21 May 2020 10:19:30 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222795"]but that’s the difference between you and him [/quote]

Not really, hopefully others may learn a bit more about FUS and FLUDT and "stress" and "blocked cats" and "urethral spasm", even if there actually is such a thing!

Maybe some vets may be persuaded to put vulnerable cats on a sensible diet and save a lot of diabetes, obesity and All the FUs

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Kate Richardson — Thu, 21 May 2020 10:14:13 GMT

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222792"] I bet Anthony Todd has helped vast numbers of patients get better. [/quote]

Bob, I’m sure he has.

[quote userid="6550" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222792"]The more I know , the more I know I don't know!![/quote]

but that’s the difference between you and him

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Anthony Todd — Thu, 21 May 2020 10:14:10 GMT

[quote userid="6386" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222791"]t’s pointless. He must have seen a completely different cohort of cats than I see or is just totally blinkered [/quote]

Only reporting some experiences over a fair period, including the great epidemic, and the key original research work.

Where am I blinkered and my cats were different? Need clarification and evidence not just condemnation!

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Bob Russell — Thu, 21 May 2020 10:00:58 GMT

'More than one way to skin a cat' as they say!

I wonder how often my feline diagnoses are actually correct. I suspect many are just close enough or they were going to get better or not anyway. I bet Anthony Todd has helped vast numbers of patients get better.

The more I know , the more I know I don't know!!

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Kate Richardson — Thu, 21 May 2020 09:49:43 GMT

It’s pointless. He must have seen a completely different cohort of cats than I see or is just totally blinkered

RE: Social media spats and the future direction of VetSurgeon

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 21 May 2020 09:34:06 GMT

[quote userid="11901" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/29077/social-media-spats-and-the-future-direction-of-vetsurgeon/222778"]PS: looks like Anthony Todd has taken your bait and risen to the challenge! [/quote]

More like Beats

It's deuce at the moment, Rod Laver taking on the young pretender

Neil