IR35

RE: IR35

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:28:19 GMT

It also gives a better time lag for everyone to get things into place from practice managers to locums. If anyone from the two organisations are reading this, it would be appreciated if we could have an update at the end of the year. It's not yet 100% certain that IR35 will even be enforced, various parties are lobbying against it. Personally all I want is a degree of certainty

Neil

RE: IR35

Clive Ansell — Thu, 19 Mar 2020 18:11:18 GMT

Yep. Had an email from IVC today confirming they will delay the introduction of their changes until April 2021. Gives us a bit of breathing space at least.

"You may be aware that the Government announced on Tuesday 17^th March, that they have delayed reforms to IR35 until 6^th April 2021 due to the Coronavirus pandemic and the impact of this on businesses.

We have decided that we are also going to delay the reforms that we proposed in relation to how we engage with our locums until this time as well."

RE: IR35

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:23:36 GMT

6th April 2021 according to the link and confirmed on which website

Speaking in Parliament on Tuesday evening, Chief Secretary to the Treasury Steve Barclay said: ‘The government is postponing the reforms to the off-payroll working rules, IR35, from 6 April 2020 to 6 April 2021…in response to the ongoing spread of COVID-19 to help businesses and individuals’.

Read more: www.which.co.uk/.../ - Which?

Neil

RE: IR35

Bob Russell — Thu, 19 Mar 2020 16:20:43 GMT

Apparently changes have been postponed until april 21

RE: IR35

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 19 Mar 2020 15:15:46 GMT

Both Vets4pets/Companion Care and IVC have delayed till next April.

For both can I thank them for making the decision so quickly

Neil

From IVC

You may be aware that the Government announced on Tuesday 17^th March, that they have delayed reforms to IR35 until 6^th April 2021 due to the Coronavirus pandemic and the impact of this on businesses.

We have decided that we are also going to delay the reforms that we proposed in relation to how we engage with our locums until this time as well.

RE: IR35

Sarah Keir — Thu, 19 Mar 2020 09:03:51 GMT

Yet to see how this will go for us locums. All my contracts currently standing have cancelled and was about to get some more for the up coming months and they are pulling out too. I am sure many others are in same position.

RE: IR35

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 18 Mar 2020 09:43:04 GMT

IR35 postponed for a year:

https://www.contractoruk.com/news/0014481government_shock_delay_ir35_reform_thanks_peers_and_covid19.html

RE: IR35

Sarah Keir — Sat, 07 Mar 2020 17:16:37 GMT

I have finally got an email from the JVP where I am booked for some of April - he will meet me next week and go through it and 'get it sorted' whatever that means!

RE: IR35

rachaelyost — Fri, 06 Mar 2020 19:40:38 GMT

Looks like Vets4pets will be sending out emails soon and assessing everyone on an individual basis. I suspect there will be some emphasis on whether locums can supply cover if needed. Looks like I will have to go PAYE unfortunately as the number of places you work per week doesn't make any difference (I can do 4 or 5). My accountant has said that I would need to increase my rates between 20-30% to prevent a reduction in wages.

RE: IR35

janine redman — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:31:55 GMT

I think they are hoping to bind locums as employees because they have difficulty getting enough staff. I am not sure how well they would cope if you refuse to accommodate their requests .

RE: IR35

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:04:46 GMT

If you can, go to LBC and listen to today's show between 6-7pm. Very useful. Talks about the failings of this new rule and calls from POV from both contractors and big companies. In short, a very poorly drawn legislation. I hope it helps!

RE: IR35

Nicola Cole — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 12:14:39 GMT

Isn’t there something about having 45 days to appeal a decision if you don’t agree with what the company have deemed your ir35 status to be?

RE: IR35

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:09:22 GMT

Have you contacted IVC directly?

If you build a case and I would suggest using the HMRC tool available then it may be looked at. There are a number of tests available that i'm sure they would have looked at.

Look at it from the IVC point of view. They are annoying a bunch of locums by doing this and will probably be faced with higher daily rates and locums will think twice before accepting placements especially at busier times, so why stick their neckout like this? Maybe it's because they have to be squeaky clean?

Neil

RE: IR35

Simo — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 08:47:21 GMT

I get it. But for 4 years now we decided to always have one of us working and the other available to substitute if necessary, and IVC took advantage of it many times and not recognizing the sacrifice to our income to give this bit of assurance and to comply with the rules, and more, to be treated as a scam, burns.

RE: IR35

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 23:17:34 GMT

I get it (The IVC decision)

HMRC will be looking closely at a large employer in the Veterinary industry and I expect this decision wasn't taken lightly. I've been told that 'substitution' is a key area where IR35 fails.

https://www.contractoruk.com/ir35/it_contractors_warned_on_substitution_clauses_4670.html

I've signed up as a casual PAYE for IVC and will be charging accordingly. I suspect other large corporates will follow.

Neil

RE: IR35

Iain Richards — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 11:41:59 GMT

[quote userid="9515" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/28909/ir35/219785"]perhaps time for a Locum Union?[/quote]

I doubt it's possible. You could get advice, but no means of colletive bargaining as a locum. By definition, we are alone in this.
IVC have gone a bit heavy on this, they could do it on a case by case basis, but perhaps they've been burned too often

RE: IR35

Simo — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:32:43 GMT

I am trying to work out the same. I'm simply taking last year figures from the self assessment, add a portion of the mileage claimed and run the figure obtained trough one of the take home pay calculators (you can google it and will find a few online) and divide for an estimate of the days I will work for them, by excess. It's far from perfect but gives you a rough idea if your accountant is not helping with it.

For me it turns out an increase of around 13% (probably will add some more for the general annoyance). But it largely depends on how many days you work for them, how much you claim in expenses etc... It's nothing they can't afford, considering that I expect they will save the agency fees too this way.

RE: IR35

Sarah Keir — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 10:21:08 GMT

I am having difficulty working out how much I need to increase my fees by to keep the same income. I have asked my accountant for advice but not forthcoming and tends to be subject to a whole load of bollocks!

I can see that locums will be treated as second-class employees. In the end-user/client/corporates favour, but not ours - perhaps time for a Locum Union?

RE: IR35

Simo — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 09:10:10 GMT

[quote userid="5012" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/28909/ir35/219780"]practices have declined anyway since being taken over; staff leaving, very poor morale amongst few remaining permanent staff, trying to cut rates to the bone, increased work loads. Being brutally honest, probably better off without it.[/quote]

I would agree with you, and staying away from corporates has been one of the main reasons why we took the locum route in the first place. But unfortunately in the last year at least 3 of our best clients have been acquired by either Medivet or IVC and a bunch of others in our area for which we did the occasional day have been incorporated too.

So you see. It's becoming harder and harder to avoid them at least in our area, and really I don't want to let down practices with which I build a relationship of complete trust and close friendship with the staff.

RE: IR35

Clive Ansell — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 08:43:54 GMT

[quote userid="14360" url="~/001/nonclinical/veterinary-practice-management/f/training-employment/28909/ir35/219779"]If I'm not too cheeky, did you discuss an increase of the rates with them? Did they make you an offer? [/quote]

Yes. I have agreed reluctantly to become PAYE, but have uplifted my daily rate to cover the cost of the increased taxation (NIC from 9% to 12%) and the fact that I cannot offset work related expenses (travel etc) against taxation.

I have had a response to the email, but they have not acknowledged or responded to the rate rise.

Will wait and see if they do. I only do little bits of work for them, odd days here and there, occasionally a full week. Would not be a great loss if I didn't do it, practices have declined anyway since being taken over; staff leaving, very poor morale amongst few remaining permanent staff, trying to cut rates to the bone, increased work loads. Being brutally honest, probably better off without it.

RE: IR35

Simo — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 08:22:46 GMT

If I'm not too cheeky, did you discuss an increase of the rates with them? Did they make you an offer?

RE: IR35

Simo — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 08:15:01 GMT

We were already incorporated, but I remember that they asked specifically for it too.

I don't want to go back under an umbrella because in my experience they are a complete scam. And more, I don't really understand how they think paying us through an umbrella or an agency (are there agencies that pay vet staff under their PAYE?) will save them from the responsibility of assessing us on a case by case basis, as it still is a responsibility of the final client.

RE: IR35

Utlendigur — Mon, 24 Feb 2020 21:44:10 GMT

I actually didn't want to go down the Ltd company route but felt pushed into it because that's what IVC preferred! The cover I do for their practices is completely ad hoc - CPD, holiday, illness - no pattern, no regular rota, can refuse if I want, they don't have to provide work etc - no way is that under IR35

Also very annoyed that they have only given 5 days to decide when they've obviously been looking at this for months

RE: IR35

Simo — Mon, 24 Feb 2020 20:36:54 GMT

Is there going to be a class action against IVC? Too little of us do you think?

Frankly I am not happy with their approach at all. I sent them an email explaining that being a small team of surgeons working under the same limited company and only booking contract where both of us work some of the shifts, we don't fall under the IR35 as we simply can't be considered as an individual. They answered that they don't care and that they are putting all Ltd. in the same basket.

We tried to contact Synergy (I am putting down the names now, I don't see why you should go through the same I did) as it was one of the Agencies IVS mentioned as possible agencies they will accept as midmen and have been insulted with the assumptions that "It is not fair that you all are taking advantage of tax avoidance and accomodation expenses paid" so basically now we are the bad guys, while I always made sure I didn't claim a cent that was not due.

If we all have to go under the umbrella or paye, I hope we at least agree to charge accordingly for the extra trouble and expenses we will incur.

RE: IR35

Utlendigur — Mon, 24 Feb 2020 11:41:37 GMT

There's a difference between employee and worker, but both get holiday pay according to this

https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-your-employment-rights

The letter said PAYE as a casual worker