Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Iain Richards — Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:27:09 GMT

All too clear Alastair. But debate can still be robust without being unpleasant

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Sarah Keir — Sun, 09 Feb 2020 10:56:32 GMT

Niall’s open letter reply also came across as a personal attack on Richard.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Alastair Welch — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 12:49:07 GMT

Ian,

I’m deadly serious, I don’t see it as whimsical or humorous. My criticism is intended to be robust, direct, personal and hopefully hits the target between the eyes and makes them recognise their errors.

I hope that is clear.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Iain Richards — Sat, 08 Feb 2020 09:14:47 GMT

It is indeed right that those who volunteer for vet politics should be accountable for our actions and should be open to criticism

All we ask is that those criticising do so in a constructive and coureous manner, or temper any jibe with humour. It doesn't take any longer to write and it makes is more readable.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 07 Feb 2020 11:56:03 GMT

That's the politest way anyone has ever referred me to Arkell v Pressdram. ;)

I can only refer to the following passage in Niall's letter, which I did read with great interest. I also read the veterinary related Royal Charters (I'm a sad person with boring hobbies) and I sometimes even took the Veterinary Record out if the wrapper.

"Whilst introducing a lower standard of proof could result in more cases progressing further through the disciplinary process, it is not certain."

I freely admit that I may be incorrect in my belief with regards to intimation or lack thereof. Time, and no doubt a large book of English grammar, will tell.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Alastair Welch — Fri, 07 Feb 2020 08:36:36 GMT

Mark,

I'm delighted to be afforded the opportunity to apologise to you and Mr Connell for misspelling his name, its clearly an error which I regret.

I wonder if you would care to apologise for incorrectly stating that 'I don't happen to think he has "intimated" that a change in proof standards would improve confidence' as this is exactly part of the justification used in Mr Connell's open letter to the VR. I can only assume that you hadn't managed to read Mr Connell's letter before replying (because even I would't be so bold as to suggest that you had read it but failed to understand the contents).

Best Wishes,

Alastair.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 07 Feb 2020 04:46:51 GMT

Can you at least spell his name right, please?

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Alastair Welch — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 20:37:32 GMT

Julian,

This is how I see it:

I don't know anyone who is advancing the argument that lowering the standard of proof is in anyway beneficial for practicing veterinary surgeons (and to be fair even the college haven't had the brass neck to claim this). Nothing about this proposal benefits VS and in my view has the potential to do significant harm.

Instead the college's reasoning for seeking a review (as stated by Niall Conell) is that, amongst other things, a change to the standard of proof is beneficial because the public can 'maintain its trust in professional regulation' , and that were the change to be adopted the public would be afforded a greater level of 'trust and confidence' (in the regulator). Putting it another way Mr Conell is willing to accept the potential harms to the profession when weighed against the benefits to the college in maintaining its standing in the public's eyes, he is happy to inflict harm on individual veterinary surgeons for what he sees as the greater good of the reputation of the regulator.

He is chucking us under the bus in favour of the college.

I think this is wrong.

To my mind whilst it is important that the public have trust in the regulator the price paid in terms of harm to the profession of such a change is too great.The level of trust for the profession is very high so one does have to ask to what end (other than self-aggrandisement) is increasing trust in the regulator needed. But even if you think that increasing trust in the regulator is needed this issue is so toxic that even considering a review should have been recognised as likely to do such significant harm (to a profession that is clearly struggling in many ways) it should never have reared its ugly head.

In any event if the college wants to maintain (or improve) public trust in its role as a regulator it should start with the low hanging fruit: hit their own (modest) targets for performance of the concerns department for several years in a row without failure. That they see an alteration in the standard of proof as even worth consideration when their performance (as measured by their own targets) is so poor tells me that the do not have the interests of the profession at heart. They have their own interests at heart.

I honestly think it is disgraceful, and that Mr Conell has not recognised his folly in supporting this venture is pretty shameful.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 16:29:12 GMT

[quote userid="7638" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219286"]

Evelyn Barbour-Hill said:

Well, I disagree, I think "don't you dare even suggest it" is very appropriate.

In any case, I have twice asked on the other thread for the evidence for abandoning justice, and none has been presented.

And as far as i can read from the open letter, they're looking into looking if any evidence exists.

[/quote]

So: we start with somebody (who?) wanting to do it. Then they start looking for any evidence in favour?

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Mark Hedberg — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 13:14:55 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219277"]It has been written that personal criticism is not acceptable. I reject this outright.[/quote]

You're quite right, personal criticism is perfectly acceptable. I happen to *agree* that the standard of proof should not change.

When you're not bringing in "moral compasses" and vague allusions to 'levers of power" and stick with the straight facts, certainly it's a President's duty to be the public face of council. But there's no need to cast allusions on their character.

Your most recent reply? To the point, factual, accurate, and I agree with a lot of it. (Specifically: the disciplinary process is too long, and you are right, criticism is entirely appropriate. Mental health issues are very much an issue today.)

I also agree that you are perfectly entitled to criticize whoever you like.

I don't happen to think he has "intimated" that a change in proof standards would improve confidence. It sounds like an item was put to council that a change in proof would be beneficial, that Council voted to investigate. This is not a tinpot dictatorship where the President can randomly decide that something will or won't happen, if there is a vote, then Niall as President is duty bound to carry out Council's wishes. And yes, as President, he is duty bound to take criticism for unpopular decisions.

[quote userid="2131" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219276"]

Well, I disagree, I think "don't you dare even suggest it" is very appropriate.

In any case, I have twice asked on the other thread for the evidence for abandoning justice, and none has been presented.

[/quote]

And as far as i can read from the open letter, they're looking into looking if any evidence exists. As it happens, i agree with you with regards to standards of evidence, but I might be wrong. Who knows? When facts come in, let's talk. (I thoroughly enjoyed our debates but I expect I will be on your side on this one!)

Edit: I clarified which bits I agreed with, so on reflection, "most" was the wrong word.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Anthony Todd — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 10:32:40 GMT

[quote userid="5091" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219262"]Personal attacks are intolerable in all circumstances. This topic should be deleted.[/quote]

Unfortunately any criticism of views, opinions or knowledge on a forum like this is often taken as a personal criticism or attack when it obviously is not.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Julian Earl — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 10:02:46 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219250"]don’t throw the practicing arm of the profession under the bus [/quote]

I have yet to see why you think that Niall wishes todo this ? Would you care to elaborate Alastair please? Thanks! It doesn't seem likely that anyone would want to do this...surely?

TIA.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Sarah Keir — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 09:42:47 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219268"]At this stage, it hasn't yet been put to Council.[/quote]

It has. It was discussed in a closed session last week.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Bob Russell — Thu, 06 Feb 2020 09:16:09 GMT

Sadly there is only one voice from council being heard on here. It is likely he has been warned not to get too involved.

I would rather they got the present system right before embarking on any change. There is little justice where there are long delays. The innocent have been punished and the guilty punishment is delayed and therefore extended.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Alastair Welch — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 21:31:27 GMT

Sorry Mark,

I wasn't trying to insinuate anything. It was my intention to make direct and personal criticism of Niall Conell and his approach to this issue, and I had hoped that this was clear.

To be clear Niall has used the facility of VetSurgeon.org to promote what I would consider to be propaganda for the college, because it suits his agenda to provide this to a wide audience, but having used VetSurgeon.org to his ends he does not seem willing to come back and answer the hard questions.

It is my belief that the president heads an organisation which is failing in what should be considered one of its core tasks. Specifically the college is (and has been over an extended period) unable to meet its targets for the investigation of complaints in a timely manner. I am specifically referring to the long-standing inability to meet the KPI for stage 1 of the concerns procedure. This is particularly important because the vast majority of complaints are dismissed as having no merit (in the terms laid down in Statute) at this stage. That is to say the vast majority of veterinary surgeons who are investigated by the college can breathe easy after the end of stage 1. If they are unable to complete stage 1 in a timely manner it means that many VS who are entirely blameless are left to sweat for longer than is required. The target they are aiming for is 90% by 16 weeks, in December they managed 60%. It is my belief that this is a huge indictment on the senior leadership team of the college and that representatives such as Mr Conell should be prepared to both explain why they are performing so poorly, provide details of how they are specifically going to improve the situation and what disciplinary action they will take against those in charge if they re unable to remedy the situation. Against such a backdrop It is my belief that it is inappropriate for the college even to consider changes to the standard of proof. Mr Conell has intimated that a change in the standard of proof is being considered in order to help maintain public confidence in the college. It is my contention that public confidence in the college would be better served if they could meet the targets they have already set rather than looking to move the goalposts.

To be clear I am criticising Mr Conell personally because it is he who has added his name to the letter in the VR. It is my belief that his motives (to use the softening of proof to improve public confidence in the college) and his behaviour (signing the letter justifying the review) are wrong, detrimental to the profession and should be challenged. I struggle to believe that Mr Conell could not see that this issue was likely to cause an enormous amount of distress within the profession and therefore it is my belief that it is hypocritical to on the one hand advance the no-blame/mind matters agenda whilst agreeing to review the standard of proof.

If the profession were in rude health then I would perhaps be less animated, but as we all know the profession is struggling in lots of way. The fact that college have (some would say belatedly) started addressing some of these issues highlights that the decision to review the standard of proof as a foolish venture and I can hardly believe that an "Adult in the room' couldn't see this and head it off.

It has been written that personal criticism is not acceptable. I reject this outright. Those who seek high office should expect to have their belief and character tested, I make no apology for what I have written and I would happily make this criticism to Mr Conell's face. Several contributors seem to be advancing the 'he is a good bloke, leave him alone' theory: good blokes making bad choices are not necessarily good blokes, and at the very least good blokes who perhaps lose their way need this pointing out to them.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 21:17:15 GMT

[quote userid="7638" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219273"]But I believe that any change (or any decision to remain with the status quo) should be evidence based, not "don't you dare even suggest it!".[/quote]

Well, I disagree, I think "don't you dare even suggest it" is very appropriate.

In any case, I have twice asked on the other thread for the evidence for abandoning justice, and none has been presented.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 18:16:35 GMT

[quote userid="2100" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219268"]but it does seem valid to question why someone who is so widely liked in the profession and who appears to be such a solid bloke, would give further exploration of this proposal his tacit blessing without having made a stronger case for it.[/quote]

Certainly it's valid to question that, had he had given any such blessing. But he hasn't. All that has happened is that RCVS Council has asked for a review of cases to see if any change in a standard if proof would have changed anything.

No decision has been made. Maybe you're right and it's a weak idea that shouldn't be implemented. As it stands, I happen to agree with you. I don't think the standard of proof should be reduced.

But I believe that any change (or any decision to remain with the status quo) should be evidence based, not "don't you dare even suggest it!". Therefore a literature review (which is certainly not a controversial thing in veterinary research!) is certainly appropriate.

(I'm not trying to have the last word here or anything, it's just feel this is an important point.)

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 13:03:57 GMT

[quote userid="8376" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219265"]Personal attacks have no place on a professional forum. Arlo - this whole thread really should be deleted in my view.[/quote]

I'm really torn!

I mean, I've read and reread the thread a number of times, and I'm not sure any of what has been posted counts as an 'attack'. The OP asks (quite reasonably) where Niall has gone following his post, and whilst the question 'where has your moral compass gone' is not the nicest one, I wouldn't go so far as to call it an 'attack'. And much as I like what I know of Niall, there is truth in what Alastair added later:

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219247"]Thise who seek high office should be prepared to have their character and beliefs tested.[/quote]

And Alastair's subsequent point I think just reflects the strength of feeling. I'm not sure I would have used the word 'effrontery', but it does seem valid to question why someone who is so widely liked in the profession and who appears to be such a solid bloke, would give further exploration of this proposal his tacit blessing without having made a stronger case for it.

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219247"]Quite how Niall Conell has the effrontery to associate himself with such a terrible idea I really don’t know. Have any of the senior team at the college lost their job or been subjected to Internal disciplinary action as a result of their poor performance? It just isn’t good enough. [/quote]

That all said, my sense is that it is too early to take up the cudgels quite yet. At this stage, it hasn't yet been put to Council.

I do think that events of the last few days (reporting of the topic in Vet Record and elsewhere) have served the very useful purpose of alerting both the College and Council to just how unpopular this could be, and for it to go to the next stage of discussion, or a consultation, there had better be a very strong and clearly explained rationale.

And on that note, let's return to the original thread.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Frances Barr — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 11:09:33 GMT

Agreed. Personal attacks have no place on a professional forum. Arlo - this whole thread really should be deleted in my view.

Just because we disagree with someone, that is no reason for resorting to unpleasant and accusatory language.

In defence of Niall, who is a great guy..... it's worth appreciating that when you are in a position of authority, you will be receiving a wide range of conflicting and passionate view points and you will be looking to the future and trying to steer a path that will best serve the profession as a whole (not each individual). It's not easy I am sure, and it's certainly not possible to please all of the people all of the time.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Laura Kidd — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 10:15:28 GMT

Completely agree in general; and very definitely in this situation. Niall is a top guy who provides immense support to many in the vet and VN profession .

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Edward Jones — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 10:05:31 GMT

Personal attacks are intolerable in all circumstances. This topic should be deleted.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 09:57:35 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell"]It is hard not to assume that Mr Conell has dropped off the radar in order to avoid answering difficult questions. [/quote]

I'm not sure that's a fair assumption. Another might be that someone else posted the response under his account, here and elsewhere, and he is not even aware of the specific thread!

Either way, Mark has an important point:

[quote userid="7638" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219243"]Alastair, when every single person from an association or regulator is greeted here by pitchforks and burning torches, can you blame them for deciding "yeah, no thanks"?[/quote]

and I'd second this:

[quote userid="3094" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219244"]I have a lot of time for Niall.[/quote]

I think we should stick to discussing this issue in the less personal thread started by Richard Stephenson: https://www.vetsurgeon.org/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28818/standard-of-proof

(And I know that the lack of pagination of a long thread is making it difficult to read, but I am told that the reintroduction of pagination is now in testing and I am hopeful that we'll be resuming normal service on that front later this week or early next).

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 08:13:36 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell/219247"]I’ll make no apology for calling Niall Conell out for dodging difficult questions.[/quote]

And I didn't ask for one. Gadflies are a dime a dozen these days. ;) I was merely objecting to innuendo-laden character assassination. If I want to see that, I can switch on a certain news channel.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 05 Feb 2020 00:54:06 GMT

[quote userid="12375" url="~/001/nonclinical/f/life-in-practice-discussions/28862/does-anyone-know-what-has-happened-to-niall-conell"] I often wonder if upon election the permanent staff at the college sit newly elected councillors down and show them a scene from the grassy knoll, shot from a previously unseen angle. [/quote]

In reality it's more subtle: they put something in the tea.

RE: Does anyone know what has happened to Niall Conell?

niall morton — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 22:27:26 GMT

I too am generally unhappy with how the college conducts itself. I have only ever heard good things about Niall (he does have a cracking first name after all!) but there is a saying in the corporate world......if a good person enters a bad organisation the organisation generally will not get better but the person will almost certainly get worse. I hope this is not the case here and I hope Niall is well