The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Bob Russell — Fri, 06 Dec 2019 14:56:41 GMT

In this case I believe the conviction required (morally) consideration both at the preliminary level and DC level.

These are very serious convictions on paper but the DC looked at the whole picture and decided the mitigating factors were so great that only mild punishment was appropriate.

As I have said before, a good decision IMO!

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Iain Richards — Fri, 06 Dec 2019 14:11:54 GMT

[quote user="Richard Stephenson"]No it doesn't HAVe to go to DC [/quote]

Thanks Richard. I see what you mean by relevance/severity.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Richard Stephenson — Wed, 04 Dec 2019 22:51:14 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

But while we are still in the "EU" the RCVS is not allowed to take that action if it's a "EU" veterinary school.

[/quote]

Is that true? Is that how far being part of the EU extends?

That is absolutely correct - if a veterinary course / degree/ university is recognised in its own member state then the RCVS MUST recognise the qualification as well. There are no compulsory checks in place although many European Vet schools do submit to voluntary inspection.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Richard Stephenson — Wed, 04 Dec 2019 22:46:39 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]THere are some ex DC types on here, I'm sure they could confirm that if there is CRIMINAL conviction against a vet, then the case HAS to go to DC.[/quote]

No it doesn't HAVe to go to DC - the pIC has to determine if (a) the conviction might render by its nature the person unfit to practice (b) if it is in the public interest for the DC to consider the matter.

For example a one of driving conviction (e.g. speeding) probably wouldn't result in a DC hearing whereas something involving dishonesty - theft or fraud (for example) might well.

What the PIC does not have to consider is proving the facts of a case - the conviction certificate establishes those. The circumstances might well be relevant however.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Peter Faulkner — Wed, 04 Dec 2019 17:23:45 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="Mike Dale"] Brexit has nothing to do with it. If corruption exists in any vet school it should not be recognised by the College or at least suspend recognition until an investigation carried out whether EU member of not.[/quote]

But while we are still in the "EU" the RCVS is not allowed to take that action if it's a "EU" veterinary school.

[/quote]

Is that true? Is that how far being part of the EU extends?

[/quote]

Yep, its all part of that nebulous, 'deal,' they keep banging on about. Something along the lines of.. we will only agree to trade with you - if you agree to accept all our corrupt institutions / qualifications / dubious and unfair legal practices... the list is very long.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Iain Richards — Tue, 03 Dec 2019 09:34:03 GMT

As I understand it, RCVS was looking to accept all schools accredited under EAEVE

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Bob Russell — Tue, 03 Dec 2019 09:19:30 GMT

If not internationally recognised by independent inspection it is up to the EU country where the university is to regulate it. This cannot be overridden by the RCVS nor can graduates be prevented from working until or unless they set a foot wrong.

This is EU law as has been stated before and failure to comply would likely be followed by legal challenge.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 23:16:51 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Freedom of movement and equality of qualifications trumps all else, including national laws and regulatory ones. Federalism at its best. If the RCVS was to strike out by itself then likely had up upon human rights. [/quote]

The romanian schools were recognised before freedom of movement. Took them about 5 years if I remember well. Box ticking!

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

David Mills — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 23:13:35 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

But while we are still in the "EU" the RCVS is not allowed to take that action if it's a "EU" veterinary school.

[/quote]

Is that true? Is that how far being part of the EU extends?

[/quote]

Freedom of movement and equality of qualifications trumps all else, including national laws and regulatory ones. Federalism at its best. If the RCVS was to strike out by itself then likely had up upon human rights.

In other news, I've only just realised the RCVS is selling it a central London hq. I'm sure when we had the circus of ask the candidates a few years ago there were strong denials to myself and JGW and a few more along the lines of it was mandatory to have a presence in some of the most expensive real estate in the world...for...influence

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 23:08:54 GMT

I presume that recognising a school or another is a complex process that involves a lot of paper pushing and box ticking, the school may look perfect for inspection but be far from it in real life. I suspect RCVS can not make a decision based on one case especially that the case was resolved in court. From the RCVS perspective this is an happy end. Someone gave bribe, someone else took bribe, they were both convicted. Conclusion, the process works, the fight against corruption is a success!

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Kate Richardson — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 20:31:09 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

But while we are still in the "EU" the RCVS is not allowed to take that action if it's a "EU" veterinary school.

[/quote]

Is that true? Is that how far being part of the EU extends?

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 19:31:59 GMT

But while we are still in the "EU" the RCVS is not allowed to take that action if it's a "EU" veterinary school.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Mike Dale — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 16:10:29 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]

Is Bucharest School of Veterinary Medicine recognised by the RCVS? I’m guessing it probably is, as I think are all European Schools. Maybe the Rcvs need to rethink this in light of this apparent corruption. What wI’ll happen after Brexit?

[/quote] Brexit has nothing to do with it. If corruption exists in any vet school it should not be recognised by the College or at least suspend recognition until an investigation carried out whether EU member of not.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Silvia Maldonado — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 15:06:36 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]

[/quote]

Thing is not all EU Vet schools are recognised just because they are in the EU. I do remember in the year 2000 it came a kind of EU committee to check the one I was in had the minimum standards of level to be recognised (Cordoba, Spain)

I understand the RCVS has no jurisdiction in Bucharest, and cannot do anything about its Vet Uni. However, there may be a chance of removing that recognition until a proper investigation is performed, or requesting a new investigation based on the evidenced we have now. Any opinions?

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Iain Richards — Mon, 02 Dec 2019 08:59:00 GMT

THere are some ex DC types on here, I'm sure they could confirm that if there is CRIMINAL conviction against a vet, then the case HAS to go to DC.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Bob Russell — Sat, 30 Nov 2019 10:01:55 GMT

Yes and No!

The problem is that this vet pleaded guilty and that does bring complications that cannot really be ignored.

I have not studied the whole case thoroughly (but will) but as I read it she accepted she was guilty and therefore unfit to practice in the UK.

What actually then happened was the DC did not accept she was unfit because of the circumstances. As there was no proof of corruption offered (I think) they felt a need to impose some sanction.

As I see it they appear to have been extremely sensitive and gentle in their decision making.

Seems a very correct decision unless evidence of corruption is available. Good for them!

(Edit: I believe they have learned a lot of lessons from Chikosi. Perhaps they sent themselves a 'could have communicated better' letter!)

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Stephen Courtney — Fri, 29 Nov 2019 22:00:54 GMT

That poor girl should never have been brought before the DC over this. She was a victim, end of. Congratulating the DC on going easy her is all very well as at least the didn't do a Chikose on her.. perhaps they have learned something.

Endemic corruption is something alien to the UK, but a reality for large proportions of the world, and we have no right to judge others for how they responded under that pressure.

I would have done what she did.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 29 Nov 2019 17:36:05 GMT

[quote user="Peter Faulkner"]Blimey, I knew corruption was bad across the EU,[/quote]

I don't think Romania is representative of the whole of EU.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Peter Faulkner — Thu, 28 Nov 2019 22:01:34 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I wondered what you all make of this one ...

www.vetsurgeon.org/.../vet-reprimanded-after-bribe-conviction.aspx

[/quote]

Blimey, I knew corruption was bad across the EU, but this seems ridiculously blatant. Sad for the Vet and all the other victims. If this is what is going on in educational establishments imagine what it's like in all the other institutions.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Iain Richards — Thu, 28 Nov 2019 15:32:24 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I consider myself honest, but I am quite sure I would have done the same as her.[/quote]

So might I. Once I'd got the degree, I'd have been round to the examiner's door with a couple of friendly prop-forward types

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Bob Russell — Thu, 28 Nov 2019 14:30:03 GMT

Actually quite right that this student should be described as a victim of blackmail. The bribe was actually a pay off.

I suppose as a guilty plea had been entered the DC have to do something. Unless there is clear proof that the plea should have been not guilty on the grounds of blackmail then they have to accept things as they stand. The minimum 'sentence' for such a serious case as bribery presumably was a reprimand.

"Do not bribe any professors in the future!"

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:41:47 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Sure, but really? You're student threatened with losing the last six years effort.[/quote]

My heart goes out to her, it really does. And I actually don't know what I would have done in her situation. But, yes, vets may be faced with worse, including loss of livelihood.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:26:56 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]let me shed some light on the post communist romanian universities[/quote]

Wow, thanks for sharing that Dinu ... we lead such sheltered lives in this country.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]In some aspects of this job you may be put under significant pressure to do the 'wrong thing'. We are expected to resist.[/quote]

Sure, but really? You're a student threatened with losing the last six years effort. I consider myself honest, but I am quite sure I would have done the same as her.

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Must say I think it is another wise judgement by the DC. [/quote]

I can see the argument that she had pleaded guilty. But I'm not sure I understand why that means the DC MUST reprimand her.

[quote user="Edward Jones"]Sounds more like blackmail than bribery. [/quote]

Well, exactly. Based on the reported facts, I think she should have been exonerated.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Edward Jones — Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:05:48 GMT

"Pay us money or the years you've spent studying here will be wasted". Sounds more like blackmail than bribery.

RE: The vet reprimanded for bribery ...

Bob Russell — Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:02:41 GMT

There are various forms of approval as I understand it.

Full approval which involves independent inspection and EU rules approval. Here there is a requirement to accept degrees from universities accredited in the host EU country.

EAEVE requireds external monitoring but it is a legal requirement to accept recognised degrees offered in other EU countries. Not sure if there is a way to remove this recognition without the host country removing the university.

Most in Romania are approved but not accredited. One is non-approved. Not sure how that leaves the graduates but it may be they still can work throughout the EU.

Clear as mud really!

It would appear this graduate did nothing out of the ordinary for students therefore this may be a case brought to stop corruption. She may have been caught up in an impossible position. She was guilty, she was sentenced with a suspended sentence and the DC to choose whether to go fairly gently. Brave of her to represent herself, I thought.

Did they go after the corrupt professor I wonder?

Must say I think it is another wise judgement by the DC. They seem to be getting good at their job!!!

(Did a bit of an edit!)