Beyond the Brexit wire

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Iain Richards — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 11:11:37 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Andreas Ege"]For me the Guardian is one of the few British newspapers I can actually read without getting a headache.[/quote]

Interesting. For me, it's the only newspaper than gives me a headache. And a nosebleed (from the rising blood pressure from reading all that lefty nonsense!)

[/quote]

Read the Times in print, Guardian online. The actual reporting is usually sound,they both have their share of good writers and some who are poor. The Observer on Sunday is about the best of the newpapers that are intended to be read.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

vs0u — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 18:09:39 GMT

[quote user="Chris Geddes"]

[quote user="vs0u "]I like i. It's also small and cheap! [/quote]

I also like i. But I do think that it has a left bias. Articles by Nick Clegg, Mark Steele and Owen Jones and the like, and Jeremy Corbyn has declared it his newspaper of choice! Do you really think that it is politically centrist?

[/quote]

Agree it's a bit lefty overall

Although Nick Clegg is central surely?

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 12:33:37 GMT

Is there really an opportunity in fragmentation? I have my doubts

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Bob Russell — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 11:12:57 GMT

I also love how the Remainers ignore the fact that Ms May's deal would potentially have been open ended but this deal could be ended.

The danger that I see is the UK being stuck in a poor deal with a long term commitment even before a final deal has been negotiated. Do we want the long term negotiations done with one or both hands tied behind our backs?

If the Northern Ireland Assembly could pull their fingers out they may realise that they could be extremely powerful in UK and EU politics.

NI could be a stepping stone between the UK and EU. It could become a very affluent place, being part of the UK but 'within' the EU. It could be that businesses would choose to have offices there to bridge the gap.

This could be the biggest opportunity the whole island of Ireland has ever had but does depend on NI politicians becoming international players not just fighting political border wars. Are they grown up and mature enough for the big league?

Not a problem but an opportunity!

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 01 Nov 2019 18:28:54 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]

Only by a huge compromise on Northern Ireland. Which TM refused to do and BJ promised not to.

[/quote]

I love how the Brexiteers always ignore the uncomfortable bits in these topics! ;)

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 01 Nov 2019 11:09:28 GMT

[quote user="Andreas Ege"]For me the Guardian is one of the few British newspapers I can actually read without getting a headache.[/quote]

Interesting. For me, it's the only newspaper than gives me a headache. And a nosebleed (from the rising blood pressure from reading all that lefty nonsense!)

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Andreas Ege — Fri, 01 Nov 2019 11:07:16 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Pointing"]The Guardian does have an agenda and it most certainly isn't pro-Brexit.[/quote]

I'd certainly agree with that. In case of the reportded study I'd think (hope) they would at worst be guilty of ommission rather than wrong reporting.

Unfortunately, even with scientific publications, one can never be sure if the reported stuff is correctly reported without going back to the original source(s). Probably worse with most newspapers or newsfeeds. :-(

For me the Guardian is one of the few British newspapers I can actually read without getting a headache. With most newspapers I hardly ever can figure out from the headlines whether an article interests me or not. And they have a nice mobile app without major paywall. :-)

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Chris Geddes — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 14:44:26 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]I like i. It's also small and cheap! [/quote]

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

vs0u — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:36:05 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Pointing"]

[quote user="Andreas Ege"]From a Guardian article [/quote] The Guardian does have an agenda and it most certainly isn't pro-Brexit. I used to quite like the Guardian and dipped into it every so often to try and get a more balanced view on a variety of topical subjects - but these days it just seems to deliver a very one - sided view of the world. The DT tends to give the opposite world view - so somewhere in between is probably where a certain amount of common sense can be discovered.

[/quote]

My impression is that the Guardian and Telegraph have recently gone to opposite extremes... It was always clear what their bias was, but recently they have both become biased to the extent of deliberately misrepresenting the facts. I like i. It's also small and cheap!

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Bob Russell — Thu, 31 Oct 2019 12:23:33 GMT

I cannot find a single news source that does not have an agenda. The closest seems to be SKY News.

Guardian too pro-remain. Telegraph too far pro-Brexit. Daily Mirror too Labour on the fence. Daily Express off the scale pro-Brexit but good for a laugh. Times wants money and Independent cannot seem to turn off Adblocker!

I have to say I have never felt so many attempts to manipulate my opinions!

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Stephen Pointing — Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:30:27 GMT

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Andreas Ege — Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:10:24 GMT

Oh, and regarding the original train of thought of the thread.

I do not see how the two groups can be reconciled anywhere in the neat future, whatever actually happens next.

And I see even less who could lead a reconciliation. BJs rhethorics certainly won't help, but neither does Corbyn or anybody else at the moment. I'd rather worry it will be getting worse, before it gets better. Especialy if a general election gets carried out with Brexit as the main, if not only agenda.

Glad I can't vote here, otherwise I'd struggle to decide in front of which swine I wanted to throw my perl.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Andreas Ege — Tue, 29 Oct 2019 21:02:19 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]Do Brexiteers believe we will all gain, or just them? [/quote]

From a Guardian article (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/oct/24/majority-of-voters-think-violence-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit) quoting a (the?) Future of England study:

"Despite leave voters’ conviction that Brexit should be delivered at all costs, over half of people throughout all three countries thought that the nation would become substantially poorer as a result of Brexit."

There are more rather disturbing findings in that study, including a majority (in both groups) endorsing violence against MPs, if it promotes their respective goal and that, if it destroys agricultural or fishing business, or the U in UK, it's well worth it.

Fit's the "do or die" attitude (or more correctly, maybe, a "do and die" attitude).

It emphasises, what I've been thinking for a long time now. That Brexit got very little to do with facts and future chances (or the lack thereof), but a lot with emotions (and probably wishful thinking). The empire will strike back!

The study seems bit weak on the statistical side, though. The Guardian puts the number of questioned people at just over 4100. I would have serious doubt that figure reaches anywhere near a statistical represantative sample. Didn't try to find and read the study, though. Got better use for my time.

I just hope all the "once we're out everything's gonna be better" hype comes somewhere close to reality. At least, if it should go pear shaped, we have a realistic plan b.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

vs0u — Tue, 29 Oct 2019 18:53:55 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Has anyone actually done the maths on this. If 52% of the country voted leave, it may not actually average out that 52% of MP's are in a leave constituency. The BBC constantly tell us that areas like Sunderland are 70% leave which further skews the statistics. Not really arguing just an interesting statistical point[/quote]

I think I read somewhere that over 60 per cent of constituencies voted leave

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Against all the odds, he did return with a deal. [/quote]

Only by a huge compromise on Northern Ireland. Which TM refused to do and BJ promised not to.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Nope, sorry, you lost. [/quote]

Surely if brexit is going to be that great, there will be no losers? My belief is that brexit means we will all lose except the very rich. If I thought 52% of the population actually stood to gain from Brexit I wouldn't be so against it. Do Brexiteers believe we will all gain, or just them?

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Bob Russell — Tue, 29 Oct 2019 12:43:20 GMT

People that know Boris often describe him as charismatic. He is a good orator, very well educated and like it or not does have a pretty impressive track record and history.

People that do not agree with him or trust him seem to be very quick to describe him in a very negative manner. You do not get to be London Mayor and re-elected without having considerable qualities.

I don't know him, never met him (but relatives have) but I have considerably more confidence in his ability to get on with international leaders than M. Corbyn.

Boris can speak a number of languages fluently but with the most excruciating British accent!!

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Francisco Gomez — Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:00:33 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

half the problem with Brexit has been a failure to recognise from the start that the choice was a binary one, with winners and losers.

[/quote]

Absolutely, and when the rules of the game gives you an unfair advantage it is even worse.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 29 Oct 2019 07:52:09 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]

Charm or Charming are not words that spring immediately to mind when talking about Boris.

words that do spring to mind are; boom, bluster, blunderbuss, reckless, BS, superfluous waffle. So far we have had lots of promises, the usual jam tomorrow BS we get from all politicians, but very little on delivery. Not just Brexit, but across the board.[/quote]

Come on, give the man a little credit. Against all the odds, he did return with a deal. Apparently one that parliament would vote for. I think that is one hell of an achievement under the circumstances.

And as for delivery across the board, do you think ANYONE could deliver much else at the moment.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]I am in a 'leave' area but am a remainer. Am I not still part of the electorate?[/quote]

Nope, sorry, you lost.

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]Do only 'leaver' constituents get representation now?[/quote]

Finally, the penny drops.

...

I'm being VERY tongue-in-cheek, but actually half the problem with Brexit has been a failure to recognise from the start that the choice was a binary one, with winners and losers. It should have been positioned that way even before the referendum was held, and then we wouldn't have wasted all this time trying, unsuccessfully, to broker a compromise between the two.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

David Mills — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 23:19:34 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Has anyone actually done the maths on this. If 52% of the country voted leave, it may not actually average out that 52% of MP's are in a leave constituency. The BBC constantly tell us that areas like Sunderland are 70% leave which further skews the statistics. Not really arguing just an interesting statistical point

neil

[/quote]

It'll be interesting when the GE lands, but it depends I think on what the MP has done in terms of voting and whether they're in a leave or remain area. A large % leave area currently represented by a remainer (or at least one that has prevented Brexit thus far), and they will be gone, and a lot of these are Labour MPs (I remember reading that about 60-70% of current Labour seats voted Leave, don't know where or if its true).

Also, the Lib Dems rather than splitting the Tory vote, look to be eating into Labour as the main Remain party. The polling figures at the moment are terrible for Labour (and relatively good for the Lib Dems)

Is Labour leave or remain? No one really knows, and there's probably not one single answer. Voters don't generally like confusion. And this will be GE decided mainly by Brexit give or take.

The Brexit Party, rather than eating into Tory vote, seem to have screwed themselves by saying the deal was bad and should leave with no deal. Consistently, there is no real appetite for no deal in the electorate.

Labour have painted themselves into a corner somewhat, by shifting the goalposts to avoid a GE. I suspect its partly to do with many MPs facing losing their seats, and the fact they don't really know what they are for - remain or second referendum? Momentum is the former, moderates the latter. They could (hopefully) be decimated at the next election. An opposition that turns down repeatedly a GE is a very odd prospect.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Neil Wheadon — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 23:03:21 GMT

neil

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Gillian Mostyn — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 21:46:16 GMT

[quote user="Minnie"] I am surprised that there has been no Bill to compel MPs to vote in accordance with the wishes of the people that got them their place in HOC. [/quote]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Leave voting constituencies are following their agendas and not those of their electorate. [/quote]

I am in a 'leave' area but am a remainer. Am I not still part of the electorate? Do only 'leaver' constituents get representation now?

I am fully aware and reconciled to the fact that we are leaving the EU. Doesn't mean I'm not going to hope the MPs make sure it is carried out as painlessly and with as much preparation as necessary! A hard brexit is not a good idea!

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Clive Ansell — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 19:17:07 GMT

Charm or Charming are not words that spring immediately to mind when talking about Boris.

I do concede however, that given the leader of opposition is about as effective as a cat flap in an elephant house, BJ is a better bet.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 19:11:44 GMT

[quote user="Thomas Johnson"]The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement [/quote] I think that is what I would question at present. I'm not sure that many MPs are making their judgements in a disinterested manner. A lot of them appear to have been playing political games as far as I can make out. The Labour party comes up with a different reason for not being able to vote for a GE every time the previous obstacle has been removed.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Stephen Pointing — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:51:24 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]He's full of bullsh1t. [/quote] Quite possibly true - but there's a certain charm about him too - don't you think (probably not). Given the choice between him, Jeremy Corbyn and Jo Swinson I know who I'd prefer to be running the country. We'll see whether that comes to pass in the upcoming GE.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Francisco Gomez — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:47:14 GMT

[quote user="Minnie"]

I am surprised that there has been no Bill to compel MPs to vote in accordance with the wishes of the people that got them their place in HOC. This should have been over months ago.

[/quote]

If such a bill was to pass, there wouldn't be MPs. Their job is to represent, they're not delegates.

RE: Beyond the Brexit wire

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 17:42:39 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]MP's from Leave voting constituencies are following their agendas and not those of their electorate. [/quote]

But that's not how our democracy works. Winston Churchill summed it up as, "The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents, of whom he is the representative but not the delegate." MPs do not have to vote in line with the views of their constituents, you could even say that if they believe that Brexit is not the right decision for the country, or their constituents, they should vote against it. But they have to live with the consequences, and if their constituents don't like it they can be voted out at the next general election.