Suicide

RE: Suicide

Julian Earl — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 19:34:33 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Without going into detail, I think talking is healthy. I also don't think a lot of people realise themselves that things have gotten so bad they need professional help.[/quote]

Thank you Michael. I did not realise that I really needed help! After all I was resilient and almost indestructible wasn't I? In the end it was Vet Life who contacted me after I posted on the BVA forum asking how others coped with sudden loss of their career and/or practice? I was contacted by Rory O'Connor who I mentioned before and was directed to our great leader, Niall Connell and both of them have been extremely supportive ever since. I happened to mention to my GP about ongoing nightmares and hallucinations 6 months after discharge and he immediately referred me for counselling that proved very helpful. The first lady, Cheryl, identified instantly from my history: the degree/exams, plus my love of racing, that I was very target-driven. So I started thinking about new targets and began training on the bike again plus started writing my first book. Cheryl gave me very, useful advice so I had something else on which to focus. If I had not started talking to her I would not be where I am now!

RE: Suicide

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 00:44:20 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Lacking energy or feeling tired
Feeling exhausted all the time
Experiencing 'brain fog', find it hard to think clearly
Finding it hard to concentrate
Feeling restless and agitated
Feeling tearful, wanting to cry all the time
Not wanting to talk to or be with people
Not wanting to do things you usually enjoy
Using alcohol or drugs to cope with feelings
Finding it hard to cope with everyday things and tasks
Experiencing 'burn out'

[/quote]

Julian Earl being realistic for a moment, I doubt there is a single vet who's working and doesn't experience at least one of those each week. I think this is the hardest part about all of these issues, these behaviours and thoughts and feelings still register on the healthy spectrum and when do things cross over?

Without going into detail, I think talking is healthy. I also don't think a lot of people realise themselves that things have gotten so bad they need professional help.

RE: Suicide

Michael Woodhouse — Thu, 07 Nov 2019 00:37:40 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]Chris Moon's talk at BCVA , I think he suggested that if vet work was making you feel so bad and unable to cope, stop and go do something else. Stand to be corrected if anyone one else was there.[/quote]

I was there. Excellent speaker, interesting chap.

That was perhaps a part of what he said but I think the much bigger message has to be that it's not what happens to you that is important, but how you chose to deal with it. For those that don't know he had an arm and leg blown off by a landmine. His view was rather than concentrate on the 100 things you can't do, concentrate on the thousands of things you still can do. He was also very pleased his sight and gentiles were unharmed.

I very much take from his talk that we have much more control of our mental health than we think we do. We just need to learn to analyse our thinking and adjust it accordingly with a positive spin. Google metacognition - I learnt about it doing A level psychology and it is very helpful breaking down your own thoughts and altering them.

RE: Suicide

Kate Richardson — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 23:30:24 GMT

Good to balance things. Not enjoying your job or the job?

RE: Suicide

Christina Smith — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 23:23:15 GMT

RE: Suicide

Kate Richardson — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 23:15:00 GMT

Deleted

RE: Suicide

Christina Smith — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 23:08:21 GMT

Deleted .

RE: Suicide

Julian Earl — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 18:51:43 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

Lacking energy or feeling tired
Feeling exhausted all the time
Experiencing 'brain fog', find it hard to think clearly
Finding it hard to concentrate
Feeling restless and agitated
Feeling tearful, wanting to cry all the time
Not wanting to talk to or be with people
Not wanting to do things you usually enjoy

[/quote]

I am now finding this thread distressing! It alarms m how often some of those afflicted me especially after my accident in 2012. It just emphasises how important my friends, family and Vet-Life have been to me to help me cope with my altered circumstances. PTSD is a horrible experience and I was glad to speak to Rory O'Connor of Vetlife, or the VBF as it was then rather than constantly offload my concerns onto my very loving wife. To this day I cannot speak easily of the hallucinations and nightmares that occurred in autumn/winter 2012/2013, which I was told are very common after a massive injury to one's head!. I always considered myself resilient having overcome various injuries and crises over the years but I realised that, in all seriousness, when your head goes eg through a fractured skull and multiple brain haemorrhages, then everything goes! I feel butterflies as I write this thinking back so shall leave it at that, thank you.

RE: Suicide

Kate Richardson — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 14:54:52 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]I fear that i may not even able to even recognise it.[/quote]

It depends on how well you know the person and how familiar you are with their normal behaviour, but any persistent change from their normal behaviour or appearance for example can be hints.

Copied straight from the Samaritans website:

Signs to look out for

Lacking energy or feeling tired
Feeling exhausted all the time
Experiencing 'brain fog', find it hard to think clearly
Finding it hard to concentrate
Feeling restless and agitated
Feeling tearful, wanting to cry all the time
Not wanting to talk to or be with people
Not wanting to do things you usually enjoy
Using alcohol or drugs to cope with feelings
Finding it hard to cope with everyday things and tasks
Experiencing 'burn out'

Also changes to appearance, weight loss, not looking after themselves/appearance as well as usual.

This from another website:

"Spot the signs

The thing to remember about recognising depression is that it's not a one-size-fits-all disorder. There are many symptoms, and one person's experience may be completely different from the next.

But if you suspect someone you know is depressed, here are some of the physical signs to look out for:

Lack of energy or feeling tired all the time
Restlessness and agitation
Having difficulty sleeping (or sleeping more than usual)
Poor appetite, which may lead to weight loss
Smoking and/or drinking more than usual, or using drugs
Lack of interest in sex
Unexplained physical aches and pains
Self-harming

Tell-tale emotions

As you may expect, there are also many emotional signs of depression, some of which may seem obvious while others are harder to spot. Among the most common things to look out for are:

Feeling sad and in low spirits all the time, and crying a lot
Having no interest in anything, not getting any pleasure out of life
Feeling anxious all of the time
Having difficulty concentrating or remembering things, plus difficulty in making decisions
Low self-confidence and self-esteem, withdrawing from family and friends
Being more irritable and impatient than usual
Feeling helpless and hopeless
Feeling guilty, as if everything that goes wrong is their fault

How you can help

If several of the above signs apply to someone you know, they may well be depressed. They also may not have spoken to anybody about their concerns, so try to get them to open up and talk about how they feel – but be careful how you approach the subject. Wading in with statements such as, 'cheer up' or 'pull yourself together' is never going to be helpful.

The best thing you can do, once you have encouraged them to start talking, is to simply listen. And while you may not feel qualified to offer any advice, letting them get everything off their chest and supporting them in any way you can think of could be invaluable.

Meanwhile, if you think it's appropriate, encourage them to see their GP, who could offer them medical treatment or recommend a local support group."

RE: Suicide

vetbl.locum — Wed, 06 Nov 2019 12:21:58 GMT

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]Are we really properly equipped to deal with other people's mental health issues? That is my worry![/quote]

And I would add, you don't necessarily need to be equipped to deal with it, you just need to be able to recognise it and point them in the right direction for help. It can be detrimental to try to fix a problem if you aren't trained to do so. Just be supportive and understanding and as Sarah and others have said, listen.

[/quote]

I fear that i may not even able to even recognise it. Never had any training or guidance from any (employment) source which is probably my own failure for not seeking that guidance.

I surmise that it is not always possible to recognise the signs of impending suicide in some cases.

Chris Moon's talk at BCVA , I think he suggested that if vet work was making you feel so bad and unable to cope, stop and go do something else. Stand to be corrected if anyone one else was there.

He also suggested that part of problem was vet mind set of ending animals life once 'usefulness' had gone.

Rgds

RE: Suicide

Kate Richardson — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 19:13:40 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]Are we really properly equipped to deal with other people's mental health issues? That is my worry![/quote]

RE: Suicide

Sarah Wheadon — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 18:14:29 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]suppose you did speak to someone at length about their problems, then that person took their own life later?[/quote]

Difficult, I think you would have to try and realise that you gave a very troubled person the gift of your time and attention. You're right in saying that trying to find a solution is not helpful, there usually isn't a quick fix. People are often bombarded and overwhelmed by well-meaning friends or family making suggestions of what they should do. It's counterintuitive to just listen and not try to fix, but that may be more helpful than you could imagine.

RE: Suicide

Bob Russell — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 11:54:29 GMT

The responses regarding small businesses have been robust and possibly not what someone wants to hear if they are struggling with a smaller employer!

I have no experience as an employee of a corporate. Some certainly do seem to offer a better financial package but I would almost guarantee they are expecting their pound of flesh. They do have easier funding at their disposal.

Small businesses are finding borrowing more challenging and our old bank did its best to direct us onto the rocks by pulling then upping the cost of our overdraft. This was despite our figures indicating we were growing in size, turnover and profit. RBS just wanted shot of us!

New bank, back to the old attitude that vets are a pretty safe bet in comparison to many businesses out there.

Just remember that it is not easy to run a business and money going through the tills does not mean profit! Years ago (as a newly set up business) I had a head nurse very disgruntled because she felt she was worth more and she could see all the money going into the bank. What she did not see was all the direct debits, standing orders etc that were draining that away.

My advice for what it is worth would be to take more of an interest in the daily ins and outs of running the practice. The owner may say no but just might jump at the chance to have someone to talk things through with. It might also explain why they are needing to get every drop of work from staff!

We are fairly democratic here but I do still take the pressure of running the business. I am happy to talk things through with staff members if they wish.

RE: Suicide

Minnie — Tue, 05 Nov 2019 03:11:16 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]

but suppose you did speak to someone at length about their problems, then that person took their own life later?

[/quote]

been there and done that in the last month. Would I do it again? - absolutely.

another way to look at it

suppose you listen to somebody at length about how they are feeling and just listening makes such a difference to them they change their mind?

nobody really knows or understands what is going on inside another and because there are no two people living exactly the same lives I don't suppose anybody really will.

RE: Suicide

Sarah Keir — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 15:18:54 GMT

Christina, are you alright? Your post comes across as mega angry which is surprising for someone who has been a vet for 35 years as you have been. I also understand that Aberdeen can seem a very small town and jobs are limited there plus the recent corporate take overs. If you need a friendly ear to talk to then please call VetLife. Please, please, please. Don't keep this anger in, it will only damage you.

RE: Suicide

Julie Innes — Mon, 04 Nov 2019 13:54:38 GMT

I don't agree that small businesses are the bad guys in this, really. Of course, as a small business owner I would say that! However, if I was money-driven I would have a bigger business! I know all my staff well, socialise and work with them, unlike bigger businesses. I will notice if someone is not themselves and will often talk to staff about their problems, work or (more commonly) otherwise.

I do think, as George said, that people say they want to know, want to help, but as soon as the conversation turns to illness, mental health or physical, people want out ASAP. People need to learn to talk about these things. I spent a few hours on Saturday talking to a sick relative about her cancer- people do need to talk, but no one wants to listen! It's all very well saying we are "there", but what does that mean?? For someone who feels overwhelmed with depression, someone saying "well, what you need to do is..." and trying to find a solution is not helpful! And that is what most people want to do- find a quick fix. But to the person they are trying to "fix" it may feel like they are minimising their issues by suggesting it is so easy, or finding a quick way to end the conversation.

Are we really properly equipped to deal with other people's mental health issues? That is my worry! Could we make things worse with the wrong response? I tend to go very much with my gut, but suppose you did speak to someone at length about their problems, then that person took their own life later?

RE: Suicide

Alistair Graham-Evans — Sun, 03 Nov 2019 00:10:42 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]

It is a tough bastard job. Small business will always try to eke out every grain of energy for the lowest buck. Its natural. Big business will give you all the perks but stifle your ability to become small business man. It's a rat race. Oh to turn back time to Herriots idyll. [1/2 on call and house visits all day. evening surgery 7-9 and adoraration ! ] The reward is ensuring our lovely general public have nice pets to keep them amused. To look after the deliberately deformed and genetically unsound. JH and his peers have eliminated the mongrel. Cats and dogs are now a consumer item. It's progress

[/quote] Oh dear ! Can’t let this angry negative post pass without comment. This is very disrespectful to your current employer and pretty offensive to small business owners such as myself who spend a lot of time and effort trying to provide good conditions at work and to build a harmonious happy team. I would never make such a sweeping generalisation about employees. I firmly believe life is what you make it - if dissatisfied in a job I would suggest finding another as there are many clinics searching for vets or become your own boss or if you have the drive and energy become an employer yourself! If you loath the profession so much then search for something you do love as these days there are many opportunities to change direction at any point in your life which didn’t exist in those good old times. My first job was in one of the last Herriot style practices doing exhausting work - I happened to enjoy it but the grim memories fade and the funny good nostalgic moments stay with me.

RE: Suicide

James Dunne — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 19:26:44 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]

[/quote]

Hi Christina. I agree that veterinary can be tough, but overall it is satisfying - which is why most of us still do it. I have certainly felt, at times, the sentiments in your post but would suggest that life is a little bit of reality and mostly our interpretation of it; i.e. 5% what happens and 95% of how we react to it. The idea that employers try to get as much as possible for as little as possible could also be cynically reversed to apply to employees, since it is a cynical insinuation in its own right. Having gone from employee to employer and now back to employee - and spent around 10 years at each until the most recent development, I think I've a fair and balanced view of it. I don't have a magic recipe for success and have made plenty of errors in my career thus far, but I'd say this much: the harder you work and the more you give, the luckier you will tend to become. If you want things out of your career, go and get them. Some may not be possible; I accept that, but there are many opportunities within our profession and outside of the standard clinical stuff if that has become unbearable. And as for Herriot's idyll, if anyone wished to go back to the pre-antibiotic, pre-vaccination, pre-anaesthetic era and see the very real difficulties faced by people working to make sure that their clients retained the means to keep food on the table I would say stop and think. It is unsettling that the general public feel that they have a right to keep a pet when it is really a privilege, but take pets out of society tomorrow and the vast majority of what now constitutes our profession would be struggling to make ends meet. It is a first world problem that we are somewhat fortunate to have. Most of Herriot's work would have been ensuring horses remained sound and food-producing ruminants and pigs remained clean and disease-free. Backbreaking work in the main likely in conditions that were most kindly described as 'less than ideal'. And 1/1 on call during busy times of the year/when the other was on leave/sick/unavailable. It is welcome to remain in the past!

RE: Suicide

George Cooper — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 16:19:39 GMT

There's another aspect to this "how are you......." rhetorical question.

When my wife was diagnosed with and undergoing treatment for her terminal pancreatic cancer, shortly after I had had to close my practice, and petitioning for insolvency, along with the ex-practice property failing to sell twice at auction - and other associated events in a cascade of misfortune, I had a couple of phone calls from friends "catching up".

Delighted to hear from them we exchanged pleasantries - and then I was asked about how I was. As I was actually coping with things and could see the "human interest" in the story, I told them what had transpired, in my usual jocular way. Both of those friends, with whom I had extensive interaction personally and business-wise, appeared to want to end the conversation just as soon as they possibly could after hearing. And I've not really had contact ever since! My theory is that, whilst enquiring "How are you" they actually were expecting to hear the usual level of "hassle" in life. "Went on holiday and lost my luggage", "pranged the car the other day when I sneezed" as the sort of response they'd normally get. When something really serious was relayed, I think they found it extremely difficult to reply to, perhaps not feeling they had the appropriate words for the situation. So many people harbour the notion that, upon hearing of a "problem", they have to come up with a solution to it, whereas when life becomes overwhelming the best course of action is very simple - to prompt gently and LISTEN.

Further to the feeling of "low mood" (what a description - a euphemism), even now I find that, while folks express "interest", actually being effective or actively interested is beyond them. And that tends to enforce the keeping of thoughts to oneself because no-one IS really interested. So much is down to the individual concerned to rise above things - and that is NOT always possible.

RE: Suicide

Dinu Catilina — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 13:23:36 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]It is a tough bastard job.[/quote]

It's tough but if you think it's bastard then maybe have a chat with miners. yes, it's hard but not as hard as others.

[quote user="Christina Smith"] Small business will always try to eke out every grain of energy for the lowest buck.[/quote]

That's bullshit. We pay better than all corporates around us.

[quote user="Christina Smith"]Big business will give you all the perks[/quote]

What they give you is just smoke. They will make more money of you than a small business.

[quote user="Christina Smith"]stifle your ability to become small business man[/quote]

The only person who can do that is yourself

[quote user="Christina Smith"]It's a rat race.[/quote]

Only if you want to take part in it.

RE: Suicide

Bob Russell — Sat, 02 Nov 2019 09:41:35 GMT

[quote user="Christina Smith"]

[/quote]

I could not disagree more!

I have worked in a number of small practices and they have been good places to work. Small teams keeping quite a close eye on colleague welfare. Always run by vets who have known the pressures.

Yes they have to be profitable and sometimes there is little slack in the system. When the world throws everything at you at once it can be hard work. When it is quiet you catch up.

The statement that small businesses will always try to eke out every grain is completely unfair and unjustified.

The vets I have seen burn out (at a distance) have been in bigger and corporate practices or one man bands where the sole vet has taken all the pressure on his or her shoulders to the detriment of their own welfare.

This is my experience of over thirty years. I accept I may have been lucky to a point.

RE: Suicide

Christina Smith — Fri, 01 Nov 2019 22:03:27 GMT

RE: Suicide

Bob Russell — Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:15:08 GMT

We all have a moral duty to take care of ourselves and each other.

I have decided to sit everyone down for a one to one on a regular basis. We do have some people struggling because of relationship issues and I hope that work can be a bit of an island of crazy retreat rather than a problem.

Clients can add sudden and unexpected pressure just by being sharp with staff. Most of our clients are nice but a few have a tendency to bully. This has to be watched for!

If a staff member breaks down in tears it is an emergency and needs to be taken very seriously. Practice members tend to be fairly toughened by the job so ignoring staff distress is just wrong.

RE: Suicide

An On MRCVS — Sat, 26 Oct 2019 10:02:04 GMT

I would agree that generally we need to get better at checking how others are doing.

I’ve also been through a very dark period lasting over a year caused by work related issues and pressure and work overload. At the time I couldn’t think clearly at all and suicide did seem a way of escaping from everything and ending the mental pain.

I know that the management at work were aware of the strain I was under and the reasons behind it ( I told them more than once ) but they simply heard me state the fact and did not question me as to how I was really coping day to day or offer support even after I broke down at work twice and had to go home mid shift.

After leaving mid shift I told them the reason was sheer exhaustion and overwork in the days before I broke down. That was just accepted each time but nothing changed and it seemed accepted as a "one off" each time.

I’ve broken down in tears in a meeting about some work changes with the boss and practice manager and then had to go straight back to consulting. No follow up to check how I was doing.

Im not usually a person to give up or break down and they were aware of that, having known me for years.

On one occasion I was told by a manager that I looked like I didn’t want to be at work. No follow up.

I was emailed by a senior vet about a work issue and looking back now at my reply it was not a coherent reply from someone in a happy and stable mental position. I was then told I shouldn’t complain about being tired ( after working a an extra day then on call and having just a few hours sleep in 24 hours) as I had been given extra time off the day after working extra hours - as I had requested beforehand.

My point is that I really think my managers didn’t want to ask more questions because they didn’t want to know the answers or have to address the problems in the workplace. They would all say “ good morning “ and sometimes “ how are you “ but never stop to listen beyond the expected reply of “ fine thanks “. It was often obvious I wasn't fine but I was turning up for work on time and doing my job.

I’m honestly not sure what would have happened to me if I had stayed in that practice. Once you are in a downward spiral it can be very hard to get out of it.

A genuine “ how are you really “ at a time when there is time for a chat and a sit down can make a huge difference to someone .

If you notice someone isn’t their normal self or seems short tempered or stressed by things that shouldn’t normally be an issue please take the time to check in on them, really listen to their answer and ask again if you are not convinced that they really are ok. Make time for a sit down and a cup of tea and quiet chat, even if that's later in the day, it really could make a huge difference.

RE: Suicide

David Mills — Fri, 18 Oct 2019 19:48:15 GMT

There are many out there who are just coping, and on the surface may be the most ebullient, outgoing and dynamic people.

The nurse Louise O'Dwyer's recent death highlights this. On the surface a successful, outgoing, lovely nurse, lecturer and educator. Her death was reported this week as by drowning in the bath with many prescription drugs in her system for anxiety, insomnia and other psychological conditions. She fell asleep in the bath after a glass of wine and drowned.

We only know our profession, and the stresses it brings. Whilst some of these are unavoidable and indeed character building, many are not. Whilst I do have a healthy skepticism of snowflakism, and a degree of bandwagoning in mental health of mislabelling ordinary stresses as abnormal, there are issues out there.