using practice data for survey

RE: using practice data for survey

Rob Loxley — Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:31:43 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

I have found out that this employee is using clinical data for a survey for a company that I do not want to deal with.

Another employee has also been asked to participate. Has anyone views on this?

[/quote]

Client confidentiality is the main issue, and the client can't consent to their data being shared if not asked. For instance, we are signed up to SAVSNET and have posters and client information leaflets out to inform clients we are sharing clinical data (and allow them to opt out) https://www.liverpool.ac.uk/savsnet/about/savsnet-vet/
Also I assume the employee is doing this for some personal financial gain, again something I'm sure most employment contracts would have something to say about
I think you need to have a simple, straightforward conversation to tell them to stop

RE: using practice data for survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 09 Oct 2019 00:59:26 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]ell might NOT be the boss boss = a vet, as there are a number of practices owned by non-vets and run by them in their own way. So - ell might be 100% accurate in saying that he/she is practice manager, but not a vet.[/quote]

George, nobody is doubting ell's veracity!

Fortunately he or she was interested in my advice, for what is was worth, and raised no objection to my establishing that he or she was really the boss. Dunno why everybody else is going on and on about it.

RE: using practice data for survey

George Cooper — Wed, 09 Oct 2019 00:19:52 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]

[quote user="niall morton"]

Fair enough. but as the boss boss in my place I’d expect my practice manager to deal with this if it came to his attention.

[/quote]

Well, I'd expect it to be referred upwards.

All a bit irrelevant because ell is the boss boss.

[/quote]

ell might NOT be the boss boss = a vet, as there are a number of practices owned by non-vets and run by them in their own way. So - ell might be 100% accurate in saying that he/she is practice manager, but not a vet.

RE: using practice data for survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 21:10:18 GMT

[quote user="niall morton"]

Fair enough. but as the boss boss in my place I’d expect my practice manager to deal with this if it came to his attention.

[/quote]

Well, I'd expect it to be referred upwards.

All a bit irrelevant because ell is the boss boss.

RE: using practice data for survey

niall morton — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 20:24:01 GMT

Fair enough. but as the boss boss in my place I’d expect my practice manager to deal with this if it came to his attention.

RE: using practice data for survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 19:51:04 GMT

[quote user="niall morton"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]nb Evelyn Barbour-Hill : we get it, you don't like practice managers, or the idea that a vet is not in charge. [/quote]

Must say, I didn't read that into Eb-h's post. Not at all!

[/quote]

I did read it that way. I do however give the benefit of the doubt to those I’ve not met in person

[/quote]

Jeez.

Practice managers are fine when they stick to doing their job.

That wasn't the point when I replied to ell. The point was and is that the matter of who can use practice clinical data to assist which company is to my mind a matter for the boss boss (who I would assume to be a veterinary surgeon), who obviously is not often the practice manager.

RE: using practice data for survey

niall morton — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 13:21:49 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]nb Evelyn Barbour-Hill : we get it, you don't like practice managers, or the idea that a vet is not in charge. [/quote]

Must say, I didn't read that into Eb-h's post. Not at all!

[/quote]

I did read it that way. I do however give the benefit of the doubt to those I’ve not met in person

RE: using practice data for survey

Sarah Keir — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 12:52:31 GMT

I have had a recent issue with a company that asked me to collect clinical cases for them and raised the issues with them, to which they were dismissive - according to them anonymised data and not human information so GDPR doesn't count. I was also concerned that I did not have client permission to pass on their pets data, even if it was anonymised. Plus I felt that this was likely to be research by the back door without ethical approval, no matter how poor the quality of the information obtained (can you think of the bias').

I do, however, complete the opinion based questionnaire survey that come round - only in my own time and no specific cases, it is all based on opinion (how often do you see ear disease, what is the most important detail of the new product, etc). I see no ethical, moral or legal problems with this as I get a little incentive that I put towards the Christmas present fund!

RE: using practice data for survey

bob lehner — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 11:43:49 GMT

Potential GDPR issues.

And - most veterinary employment contracts will have a clause about client confidentiality.

RE: using practice data for survey

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 10:43:36 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]nb Evelyn Barbour-Hill : we get it, you don't like practice managers, or the idea that a vet is not in charge. [/quote]

Must say, I didn't read that into Eb-h's post. Not at all!

RE: using practice data for survey

ell — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 10:38:06 GMT

Thanks for your very helpful reply. I do think they may think it's all right. As you say under the mistaken idea that they are their cases.

Just have to work through it!

RE: using practice data for survey

Mark Hedberg — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 10:32:25 GMT

It's potentially more serious than that, as misuse of confidential data is very likely going to run foul of GDPR requirements, and that will get potentially very expensive.

nb Evelyn Barbour-Hill : we get it, you don't like practice managers, or the idea that a vet is not in charge. We got it the first fifty thousand times too.

RE: using practice data for survey

Jill Butterworth — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 08:55:35 GMT

First thoughts:

They may not feel what they are doing is wrong, exactly, but they must have a hunch because they haven't told you outright. Hopefully we are just talking about anonymised clinical data and this is just a case of navigating emotions.

Do they know your feelings about the company? Are they being incentivised? In any event, it's is bad manners not to have asked for your permission, but they may somehow feel that their cases 'belong' to them.

I feel for you, this is the horrible part of doing clinical work and management. I agree if you do nothing, it will eat away at you, and so it will if you do something, but for a shorter, sharper time.

Stay cool, write everything down, clarify your position, find a very clear quiet time to talk to them, not right before either of you have to do clinical work, especially surgery, as it could affect performance if emotions run high.

Afterwards create a 'practice policy' about the issue, ie taking part in things like this needs permission/discussion. It would be good if you could set out your reasons for doubting the ethics of this company, and be clear that you do not wish to obstruct improvements in clinical practice, for example if an employee wishes to study for a certificate and conduct some research of their own.

Another way to do it would be to just make the announcement about a new practice policy, and then discipline them if they don't stop, but that wouldn't really be tackling the issue or developing people management skills.

'Make your point without making an enemy'. Churchill.

RE: using practice data for survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 07 Oct 2019 21:24:42 GMT

[quote user="ell"]

I am really the boss as well as manager. Thanks for your input, I was considering what you suggest, because the snitching issue is part of the problem of how to deal with it.

[/quote]

Of course it's unpleasant, but a commander has to command. The other option is to wimp out and do nothing in order to "keep the peace" but that will be counter-productive in the long term.

RE: using practice data for survey

ell — Mon, 07 Oct 2019 21:18:38 GMT

I am really the boss as well as manager. Thanks for your input, I was considering what you suggest, because the snitching issue is part of the problem of how to deal with it.

RE: using practice data for survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 07 Oct 2019 21:10:14 GMT

You're the boss, tell him or her to stop it.

Or if you're worried about employee 1 getting angry at employee 2 for snitching, just issue a general order forbidding this sort of thing. Indicate that it is a serious disciplinary matter.

You have a perfect right to do so.

PS and Edit

I see from your profile that you are Practice Manager. So, not really the boss? Sorry, I think you should refer this upward to Boss Vet.

RE: using practice data for survey

ell — Mon, 07 Oct 2019 20:47:12 GMT

Yes, however I did neglect to say that the only reason I know about this is from the second employee who isn't doing it but was asked about it.

RE: using practice data for survey

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:59:14 GMT

Are you the boss?