The Herriot Factor

RE: The Herriot Factor

David Mills — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 18:20:02 GMT

It's not just a herriot factor.

Most books and popular mainstream culture about vets concentrate on cuddly animals and amusing stories, or tales of success against the odds. The reality, whilst less exciting or amusing, is very different. I suspect the casual neglect of animals or the daily grind of discussing money and the costs of effective care wouldn't make it into print.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:56:42 GMT

[quote user="Peter Faulkner"]

There was real frustration in his voice and I thought then he looked quite depressed... a few years later, a newspaper article touched upon this and I was reminded of the interview. This is an aspect of the story the public will miss, or forget as most people's brains are programmed to edit out the negative aspects of his stories.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1314863/James-Herriots-private-hell-The-shocking-truth-man-TVs-famous-vet.html

[/quote]

Very interesting. Poor chap - I wonder if vetsurgeon.org had existed then and he had made an Anon post about this, would he have been told to suck it up buttercup and stop being a snowflake. He had brucellosis too; in the books the episodes are described quite comically as he would have a euphoric phase as well as a feverish phase - but I wonder if the bouts of melancholy may have had something to do with this.

RE: The Herriot Factor

rhmrcvs — Wed, 25 Sep 2019 21:35:28 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

This story caught my eye at the end of last week, and I couldn't help asking myself whether there is still a public perception of vets as being like James Herriot, or whether in reality that is just the perception of the public perception by a small number of vets?

What do you think? Is the average pet owner still coming into practice thinking they can pay in cake, or that they can expect favours?

Genuinely curious.

[/quote]yes the perception of the public perception of a small minority. As is often the way the small number whine / shout loudly and proclaim the "truth". It really is exhausting. We started reading the James Herriot books with our children last year, technology has changed but most things are the same. Animal owners ( some) have always wanted more than they are willing to pay ( speak to other business owners, it happens to everyone), no dr google back then but lots of " the bloke in the pub who is an expert says....". We have lost touch with reality , we should enjoy our profession for what it is but remember our patients are not someones child, the family breadwinner, someone's mother etc etc. We should keep a bit of perspective, on the whole our patients are luxuries or something we eat or use, wierd if you think about it too much.....

RE: The Herriot Factor

Iain Richards — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 22:04:12 GMT

James Herriot wrote with great skill about his daily work and his books remain a pleasure to read. What emerges from the books is a man who loved what he did, the area he worked in and the people he worked with. His interest and compassion for the animals resonate throughout his tales. As a role model for a vet, it's hard to beat.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Anthony Todd — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:17:40 GMT

My first boss in the UK, 1967, "Uncle Clive", used to operate with the instruments boiled in a preserving pan, cotton on a metallic thermometer case, and no vapour or O2, [all did fine]

"drapes" was a square of that rubbery sheet you had under your bottom sheet as a baby with a slot cut out of it...

Recovering animals [pentobarb only??] used to be beneath his feet, so he could "watch them".... Everything did fine and clients even came from Kent to Ruislip so that he could lay his hands on the pet as then it would get better.

Taught me always to "give something" after I had a complaint for not doing just that to an animal with just a slightly bruised shoulder

Of course all clients are all so understanding, educated, and well-briefed now that all that isn't necessary..........

I wonder??

RE: The Herriot Factor

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 18:03:52 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]The proportional difference between consultations and surgery was pretty high then. Your bitch spay was 18x more expensive than a consultation. If you applied the same factor in today then, assuming a £30 or £35 consultation (I'm a horse vet so just guessing the average price!), a bitch spay should be £540-£630. Is the disparity because surgery has in general become quicker and more routine, or because drugs and consumables are cheaper (I'd almost expect it to be the other way around as I'd guess you were using catgut/nylon and possibly boiling syringes/needles back in the day), or because we expect spays to be a loss leader? [/quote]

An interesting point. All those things, except drugs and consumables which are more expensive now. But also because prices weren't really worked out, they were mostly just set as whatever sounded right and modified if the bloke down the road was doing it cheaper. In a slightly later practice I wasn't allowed to "waste" anaesthetic on cat castrations, cos the chap over town did them for a quid.

RE: The Herriot Factor

vs0u — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 14:20:08 GMT

The clients who bring the cakes/chocs/bacon butties are the same ones who pay readily. Those who don't pay don't give us anything else either!

RE: The Herriot Factor

Peter Faulkner — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 13:34:53 GMT

Everyone has made some really good points about the, 'Herriot' effect on public perception of the profession.

I remember watching a TV interview where Alf Wright was talking about the reality of life as a Vet in Yorkshire and it was not nostalgic at all. One of the things he highlighted was the people who had no intention of paying their bills. There was real frustration in his voice and I thought then he looked quite depressed... a few years later, a newspaper article touched upon this and I was reminded of the interview. This is an aspect of the story the public will miss, or forget as most people's brains are programmed to edit out the negative aspects of his stories.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1314863/James-Herriots-private-hell-The-shocking-truth-man-TVs-famous-vet.html

RE: The Herriot Factor

Nicola Cole — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 11:12:50 GMT

I haven’t done traditional mixed practice work for nearly 15 years (which I guess isn’t actually that long ago). I distinctly remember it wasn’t uncommon on a cold night on call to be offered a whiskey after a calving...Although the farmers still expected to pay their bill aswell!

I really don’t think the public perception is that veterinary care is Herriot-esque anymore. I think there is a sense of entitlement from some, and they expect things for free/cheap/’you don’t have to pay for people like this’ but generally speaking I think most people expect good quality care and expect to pay for it.

Highlighting costs of veterinary care in TV programmes would certainly be beneficial (although a fine line between appearing money grabbing as to how much it’s mentioned) and I think everybody should leave hospital with a detailed breakdown of how much their care actually cost.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Dagmar Steele — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 10:11:49 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

That too is a very good point. Actually, I wonder if it is surely THE point. In other words, should the BVA be concentrating more on how current TV programmes and books portray the profession than something from the 70's.

On that score, I wonder if anyone has actually ever asked Noel Fitzpatrick. I mean, I would have thought he would be understanding of how Supervet could set owners up to have unreasonably high expectations of their normal vet, and might be prepared to talk about it with the producers.

[/quote]

Definitely, more focus on actual TV formats. But, I have to say I had a supervet binge watching phase and was quite pleased about the fact the would actually occasionally mention costs. Might be worth a shot to see if they can do it more often. On the other hand, people might dismiss it, because, he's the supervet and normal vets certainly can't be nowhere near as expensive as him, right?
I also want to say you should be pleased the BVA is at least trying to educate the general public, our representatives in Germany are far behind on this field....

RE: The Herriot Factor

Bob Russell — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 09:44:57 GMT

Practices tended to cross subsidise a lot. My first job a vacc was about £12. 30+ years later it is three times that price. Little possibility of cross subsidy now.

Ops and OOH were similarly cross subsidised.

It is a completely different veterinary world today.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 08:56:57 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]I would imagine that most people under the age of 35 haven't read or watched the James Herriot stories (can you get it on Netflix?). Even the older clients now are much more likely to mention Supervet, or (less often) The Yorkshire Vet, than James Herriot.[/quote]

Good point. It was one of the things that made me a bit uncomfortable with the BVA story. It had no evidence in support of the four or five people opining that Herriot is still a major influence on public opinion. I would have liked to have seen some market research to support it.

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]As far as the "Herriot make work life balance a nightmare as everyone expects us to come running at all hours of the day and night"...well, the books and TV also showed him exhausted, battered, and having to leave his bed or fun weekend or evening events and walk away from his wife and family to go to calls, and working the next day.. So that showed owners that yes, when you ring OOH you are dragging a normal human away from their normal life, not ringing someone who is dressed and sitting beside the phone in the clinic waiting for your call and trotting home after an 8 hour shift for a nice day off. [/quote]

And that is interesting too. I read the Herriot books when I was younger, but my memory of the books is now limited to the sort of bucolic, paidi-in-cakes scenario talked about in the BVA press release. I did not remember (and nor evidently did anyone else referred to in that story), the books / TV showing the harsher side of veterinary life. I wonder if any of them had read Herriot recently.

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]Supervet needs to show the pricetag for each case in the corner of the screen IMO, or put it in the happy ending voiceover. [/quote]

RE: The Herriot Factor

Wren — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 08:42:58 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]A consultation was 55p (why 55p? I believe that it had been half a guinea, but when the coinage went decimal 52 and a half pence sounded a bit odd) Second consultations were 33p. I think a bitch spay might have been £10 (ooh!)[/quote]

The proportional difference between consultations and surgery was pretty high then. Your bitch spay was 18x more expensive than a consultation. If you applied the same factor in today then, assuming a £30 or £35 consultation (I'm a horse vet so just guessing the average price!), a bitch spay should be £540-£630. Is the disparity because surgery has in general become quicker and more routine, or because drugs and consumables are cheaper (I'd almost expect it to be the other way around as I'd guess you were using catgut/nylon and possibly boiling syringes/needles back in the day), or because we expect spays to be a loss leader?

RE: The Herriot Factor

gdbvet — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 07:14:13 GMT

My first job 40 odd yrs ago was at twice the average wage.Now new grads are on 60-70% of that figure.The insane increase in numbers graduating has had a profound effect on salaries generally(supply and demand).All of my children earn incomes far in excess of what veterinarians are paid,and didn't have to do a bloody hard 5 yr degree,in competition with IQ's in the stratosphere.Reading the letters concerning taking more than 2 wks off for holidays(sabbaticals)is profoundly depressing.What has the profession become?

RE: The Herriot Factor

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 24 Sep 2019 01:08:06 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]By the way, does anyone know offhand how average fees for vet services such as spay, OOH call etc in Herriot times, and also vet salaries compare with now, once inflation has been considered? [/quote]

No, but certainly agriculture was in a depression, so was the veterinary profession and incomes were very low. Assistants seeking jobs would state "will work for keep".

Remember the incident where Siegfried takes revenge on an obnoxious owner by asking a tenner for castrating a horse when the expected charge was thirty bob at the most?

James Herriot era was 1939 ish. When I qualified in 1972 I started on £1800 p.a., rising to £2000 after six months, and I thought I was rolling in it.. I was paid more than my father. A consultation was 55p (why 55p? I believe that it had been half a guinea, but when the coinage went decimal 52 and a half pence sounded a bit odd) Second consultations were 33p. I think a bitch spay might have been £10 (ooh!)

We were still happy to visit an old lady and clip the budgie's nails for nothing. I got mildly told off for asking a fee from such a lady. Nowadays I imagine I'd be told off severely by the Practice Manager for a) visiting, contrary to practice policy; b)failing to ask a full consultation fee (£35) plus a visit charge (£35); c) failing to put anything in the Practice Management System; d) failing to attempt to sell an avian blood profile or some probiotics and being at risk of failing to meet my target for Conversion Rate.

Alastair Steele-Bodger, one of the veterinary Great and Good at that time, had an anecdote which I've kept close to my heart. One of his clients was a little old lady who for some reason they charged very little. One day he heard raised voices, went to investigate and found her berating his assistant. "I won't have charity! Here's your young man done ever so much for my Binky and he only wants to charge me half a crown! I won't have charity, Mr. Steele-Bodger!" "No, no, of course not Mrs. Biggins. Three and six, please" Thus honour was satisfied all round. That's how it's done.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Virginia Campbell — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 22:34:58 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] is still a public perception of vets as being like James Herriot[/quote]

I would imagine that most people under the age of 35 haven't read or watched the James Herriot stories (can you get it on Netflix?). Even the older clients now are much more likely to mention Supervet, or (less often) The Yorkshire Vet, than James Herriot.

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]FWIW, I think clients do expect to pay, but I think they can sometimes be surprised at how much care can end up costing, especially for complex cases.[/quote]

I think this is true. The Herriot books detailed cash flow woes and the difficulties in extracting money from people - it was covered better in the Herriot stories than in Supervet. It also detailed some of the authors own financial worries - remember when he was given the massive good quality thick wool suit that he wore to the meeting, when he couldn't afford to buy one for himself? So it helped to refute the "vets are all loaded" notion.

As far as the "Herriot make work life balance a nightmare as everyone expects us to come running at all hours of the day and night"...well, the books and TV also showed him exhausted, battered, and having to leave his bed or fun weekend or evening events and walk away from his wife and family to go to calls, and working the next day.. So that showed owners that yes, when you ring OOH you are dragging a normal human away from their normal life, not ringing someone who is dressed and sitting beside the phone in the clinic waiting for your call and trotting home after an 8 hour shift for a nice day off.

Overall I think the Herriot effect was good and probably went a fair way towards establishing the high approval rating of vets with regards to trust and perceiving that we are good people who care about animals and their owners.

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]FWIW, I think clients do expect to pay, but I think they can sometimes be surprised at how much care can end up costing, especially for complex cases.[/quote]

Very true. Supervet needs to show the pricetag for each case in the corner of the screen IMO, or put it in the happy ending voiceover.

I think work/life balance since Herriot days has been affected more by the availability of 24hour everything-else; the installation first of a landline in every home (no going down t'village to ring vitnery) and then the invention of the mobile phone; and the move of dogs from outdoor runs (or chained to a kennel ) into kitchens and then owners' bedrooms. If it was living outside then past dark they wouldn't know about, or be bothered by/worried about that colitis or itchy ear.

One thing that has changed a bit since Herriot days is the tightening of 24hour responsibilities. I know that I've said this before but remember the story where James accompanies the sick pyo bitch he has referred to the small animal guy? They drip it and spay it, and ensure it's sitting up after GA....then bugger off to the pub and knock back pints till James is totally legless. They have a quick peek at the bitch, go to sleep and leave her to god till the morning. Sensible enough - as the likelihood of her having a serious but fixable problem at that point was low- but you couldn't do that now. If you could all go for a jolly pissup after an OOH case if you fancied it, rather than sit in the clinic wondering when it would be OK to leave it with the on-call nurse, and whether to instruct her to monitor it all night or get some kip in the nurses' flat and check it at 1am and 5am, and hope you've made it clear enough to the owner what the OOH care will be like, and run your decision past the "RCVS disciplinary" section of your brain when you decide on any level of care that isn't you personally holding its paw all night, then OOH would be a bit more entertaining.

On the plus side, we have better light and cattle crushes now (mostly, except at "the other place" where the Surprise! In calf! yearling heifer has been trying to rid herself of a Belgian Blue foetus all day) and reversible sedation and iso/sevo now so that makes OOH a bit handier in some ways.

By the way, does anyone know offhand how average fees for vet services such as spay, OOH call etc in Herriot times, and also vet salaries compare with now, once inflation has been considered?

RE: The Herriot Factor

Kate Richardson — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 21:50:10 GMT

[quote user="Joyce Whitehead"]

Maybe it is a Yorkshire thing, as we also get lots of appreciation from clients, but they (mostly) still expect a bill too. We are rural too and I’m sure that makes a difference as smaller practices equals more day to day knowledge of our clients. Many clients have become friends, our kids went to school together for instance. We meet them in the pub, occasionally they will buy us a drink if their pets have been unwell.

I regularly find that nowadays the children of our older clients are coming in with their own pets and their children. Now that does make me feel old!

Our thank yous definitely outweigh our complaints, we document both on our PMS under the same record and discuss at practice meetings.

[/quote]

I'm down south so its not just a Yorkshire thing. Its more of a small practice mentality thing I think. One of the reasons I left my previous job (hosp with multi vets) was to work in a smaller clinic where continuity was better (and when I left something somewhere it stayed there ). I hate hearing the receptionists say I'll ask the vet- no, say I'll ask Kate.

I think I have the perfect situation now, as I get to know my clients well, but live far enough away that my life away from work is completely separate

RE: The Herriot Factor

Joyce Whitehead — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 21:40:13 GMT

I regularly find that nowadays the children of our older clients are coming in with their own pets and their children. Now that does make me feel old!

Our thank yous definitely outweigh our complaints, we document both on our PMS under the same record and discuss at practice meetings.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Wren — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 20:56:15 GMT

I've certainly worked in areas that were very Herriot. We had farms on the North York Moors where the (suckler) cattle were tethered in barns all winter, and I had several farmer clients who couldn't read or write. We regularly sat down for a farmhouse lunch whilst TB testing. One chap 'paid' me for taking the sutures out of his hunter's tieback with a bunch of onions, two lettuces and a four pack of long out of date lager. We drank in the pub with our clients, and went to their weddings and funerals. Vets definitely had a real place in the community.

Things up there may well have changed since I left nearly 10 years ago, but I'm pretty sure that life and veterinary work in the more remote areas would still be recognised by Herriot.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Michael Woodhouse — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 20:47:05 GMT

I do favours for clients all the time. Not got anyone paying in cake, but there are cases where the outcome is not what we'd have liked and I'll be kind on the bill. Maybe the Heriott thing is closer to me than most - my practice is in the Yorkshire Dales town where All Creatures was set. I had my tea tonight in the place he spent his honeymoon..........

I do think a lot of the vocation in the profession has been lost. It's become a job rather than a way of life and I think that's to the detriment of the profession. No on call, all this talk of WLB, all the while people being less happy overall.

Technically we have moved on, but it's worse for the vets.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Lucy Fleming — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 20:31:31 GMT

Between Herriot, the Yorkshire Vet, and the Supervet, we can't win

FWIW, I think clients do expect to pay, but I think they can sometimes be surprised at how much care can end up costing, especially for complex cases.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Kate Richardson — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:06:58 GMT

We do have a lovely lady who lives next door to the clinic whose cat is not the keenest on being poked and prodded shall we say, so I often pop next door to vaccinate him or following a lump removal recently to do the post op checks, She brings us cake (really good cake) lots but she also pays her bills and expects a bill.

Not sure if JH like, but I will go the extra mile for appreciative clients if I can. That's what makes the job so lovely

RE: The Herriot Factor

Anthony Todd — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:34:23 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Genuinely curious[/quote]

It's been like that since the 60s!

"You are an expensive little doggie"

RE: The Herriot Factor

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:59:27 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]This story caught my eye at the end of last week, and I couldn't help asking myself whether there is still a public perception of vets as being like James Herriot, or whether in reality that is just the perception of the public perception by a small number of vets? [/quote]

It's the latter.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Is the average pet owner still coming into practice thinking they can pay in cake, or that they can expect favours?[/quote]

No.

RE: The Herriot Factor

Sarah Keir — Mon, 23 Sep 2019 16:50:38 GMT

I feel that some clients expect gold-plated treatment without paying, but if this is due to James Herriot or not, I don't know. May also have something to do with the NHS free at source so never truly knowing the cost of health care, though I hear that even in the USA where any medical bill is $$$ this still happens. I think some people will always be chancers, trying to get what they can for as little as possible and ideally nothing. Individualistic society culture.