UK Sovereignty

RE: UK Sovereignty

Bob Russell — Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:02:25 GMT

This is only an interim agreement but now does allow an exit route rather than being tied in, potentially for ever more.

It allows the UK to negotiate deals worldwide and control immigration which were key concerns.

Whether it will be beneficial or detrimental will probably depend on the quality of our leadership over the next few years.

I have no idea whether it will be accepted by Parliament and I doubt Yuncker has the authority to prevent and extension but we really do need to get something sorted so life can return to some sort of normality.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Beats — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 21:22:56 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Pointing"]I don't profess to know much about NI politics but I suspect that if this deal was put to a referendum in NI itself it would command a majority[/quote]

if the choice was between no deal at all with the EU and this deal then probably this deal would be chosen, though one can never be sure in a referendum.

That shouldn't suggest that the proposed deal is favoured by (nor objectively preferable to) either of the last 2 deals from Theresa May by those living in Northern Ireland.

Is it any better for the English than the first deal Theresa May agreed with the EU? If not, then I'm not sure I'd expect a different outcome this time round.

[quote user="Stephen Pointing"]I don't think the DUP speaks for the majority of voters in NI as far as this deal is concerned.[/quote]

They probably do insomuch as stating that they consider staying in the EU to be preferable to a bad deal exit for Northern Ireland, and most of Northern Ireland will consider this a bad deal exit for Northern Ireland.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Stephen Pointing — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:36:22 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]The deal puts a customs border in the Irish Sea ... something both he and basically EVERYBODY else said shouldn't and wouldn't happen.[/quote] I don't profess to know much about NI politics but I suspect that if this deal was put to a referendum in NI itself it would command a majority - in much the same way that NI voted to remain inside the EU. I don't think the DUP speaks for the majority of voters in NI as far as this deal is concerned. Well done Boris (+ associates) for coming up with a new deal in such a short space of time. In normal times it would be voted through the HoC even without the help of the DUP - but these are not normal times.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 20:19:22 GMT

The deal puts a customs border in the Irish Sea ... something both he and basically EVERYBODY else said shouldn't and wouldn't happen.

A bad deal isn't necessarily better than a no deal.

At least with the back-stop we had some breathing space to look into arranging other options, such as utilising technology to monitor the border etc. With BJs deal we are stuck with a border that will effectively put NI in a no-mans land. Obviously Eire is happy with it ... It takes them one small step nearer to a united Ireland! I completely understand why the DUP are against it.

But, if parliament vote against it, BJ will get to look like the hero who sorted it out only to be held back by a wicked remainer biased parliament. Job done. Even though Teresa's deal was probably a better one.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Clive Ansell — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:16:59 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

He promised a deal and he delivered.

I'm eating my words and I'm happy to accept when I have been wrong.

[/quote]

A deal is agreed, but it will not be delivered until and unless he can get it through the house of commons. Could be tough without a working majority of MP's.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Neil Wheadon — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:16:33 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]He promised a deal and he delivered.[/quote]

Anyone can sign a deal. I could sign a deal that I want to run over by a herd of elephants. The question is what's in the deal? Cue the DUP

What was the joke on the news quiz. It's like having a bad tooth, come 3 years you'll have it yanked out regardless of the method.

Neil (reaching for hard hat)

RE: UK Sovereignty

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 15:42:22 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

He promised a deal and he delivered.

I'm eating my words and I'm happy to accept when I have been wrong. [/quote]

Wow - I hadn't seen that news, thanks for sharing. And what a gracious post!

Still, he hasn't got it over the line yet. Let's keep fingers crossed. I really don't think I can bear another delay and the inevitable discussion and distraction from more important things.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Francisco Gomez — Thu, 17 Oct 2019 13:48:05 GMT

He promised a deal and he delivered.

I'm eating my words and I'm happy to accept when I have been wrong.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 21:03:38 GMT

For information. Make of this what you will.

www.vetsurgeon.org/.../FINAL-VERSION-Press-Release.pdf www.youtube.com/watch

RE: UK Sovereignty

vetbl.locum — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 17:10:01 GMT

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/27/mps-government-prime-minister-no-deal-brexit-parliament-john-major

No doubt what he thinks of BJ

RE: UK Sovereignty

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:47:21 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]I think he knows he cannot get a better deal.[/quote]

The shameful part is that it is likely he's always known this - despite all along crowing loudly that he would be the one to get a better deal! And saying May was weak to not achieve what he also can't.

The EU are frustrated because they can't do anything while waiting for BJ to come up with something. Anything. They can't agree to a blank piece of paper.

RE: UK Sovereignty

vetbl.locum — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 16:25:18 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Sadly the person with the responsibility for the banging of heads is the Speaker and he has a very clear partisan position against Brexit.

The umpire is biased!

At the moment I cannot see a clear way out of the situation. Politics and Parliament is well and truly needs repairing.

[/quote]

The umpire is going to be swopped soon

BJ needs to get on with extracting his deal from EU and present it to parliament for approval

But instead he is framing for a ' people v parliament ' election campaign after those nasty MPs thwart the 'no deal' madness.

I think he knows he cannot get a better deal.

Chaos suits his cause. A dangerous route for the country

Rgds

PS and those 20000 extra police ain't available

RE: UK Sovereignty

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:12:30 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]PS 'getting it done on 31st' is only going to be the start of a new process which may last for years[/quote]

This. I hear so many people say they're sick of the whole thing and just want us to leave now. They seem to think no-deal is a solution, whereas, in fact, it is the opposite. We will still need to work out a solution to trade with the EU. But by then we'll be out of the EU and struggling to import and export without any legislature in place at all. Lovely.

It is like a vet partner finding it difficult to untangle a partnership agreement before retirement, with everybody having different demands, so they just give up and walk away. It ain't suddenly gonna get easier afterwards!

RE: UK Sovereignty

Bob Russell — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 15:01:08 GMT

I think many in the EU are starting to realise that they should have been more flexible both during the Cameron years and subsequently.

The whole thing has triggered so much disruption politically that there could be serious repercussions for them as well as the UK.

The poisonous atmosphere in parliament has so many possible implications. All sides need their heads banged together.

Sadly the person with the responsibility for the banging of heads is the Speaker and he has a very clear partisan position against Brexit.

The umpire is biased!

At the moment I cannot see a clear way out of the situation. Politics and Parliament is well and truly needs repairing.

RE: UK Sovereignty

vetbl.locum — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:11:28 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Pointing"]

What I want to know is "Where is Guy Fawkes when you need him?"

[/quote]

Hopefully under surveillance by Special Branch !

RE: UK Sovereignty

vetbl.locum — Fri, 27 Sep 2019 14:03:22 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Either way, nobody has yet answered me as to how and when I am going to be better off if we remain.

[/quote]

Has there not been numerous expert opinion about a drop of 5-10 'percent in GDP on leaving ?

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]There is no attempt at consensus[/quote]

What? That's what Mother Theresa tried for a couple of years and got precisely nowhere. The problem is that 'in' and 'out' are mutually exclusive concepts.

[/quote]

No she defined her version of 'Brexit means Brexit' and announced Article 50 at Tory party conference

She could have had commons debate on nature of Brexit before. She could have sent an all party delegation the to EU

EU offered 5year gap to allow discussion prior to leaving to formalise our relationship.

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]PS no one has yet answer ed me as to how and when I am going to be better off after Oct 31[/quote]

Largely because nobody really knows.

But, there is a body of opinion that the EU is a failing institution / ideology and won't survive that much longer anyway,

[/quote]

So basically it is trust me as ' I am mendacious narcissistic unprincipled charlatan of a PM ' but it will be sunny on those uplands Honest ! PS I didn't think Leave would win but I got to make best of it (For me and my rich chums).

EU may well be failing but we could have stayed and forced it to reform

I fear that the UK may fail as we focus on the 17m and ignore the 16m

There has to be a way to bring these two together or risk civil unrest and fracturing of UK

Why is this Referundum result fixed in stone Election results can get changed every 4to 5 years?

Surely a second referundum is reasonable with no deal,remain , or a deal on paper?

This would avoid another hung parliament?

Rgds

PS 'getting it done on 31st' is only going to be the start of a new process which may last for years Can't wait

RE: UK Sovereignty

Stephen Pointing — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 19:47:52 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]No, they just waffle[/quote] Ha ha - I do like that. Always good to bring a bit of humour to a subject that appears to be being treated as a matter of life and death. Plenty of waffle spoken in the EU parliament and a similar amount in our own.

What I want to know is "Where is Guy Fawkes when you need him?"

RE: UK Sovereignty

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:37:31 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]The commons last night was a truly horrid place and all need to consider their combatative stances.[/quote]

Yes. I switched on the TV thinking "Yay, go democracy, our elected representatives are back in the house to give voice to their countrymen (on both sides)". I switched off fairly quickly. It felt like I was hanging around gawking on the fringes of a playground fight. Distasteful, embarrassing stuff and - most importantly - wasting valuable time. Although I suspect that suits Johnston well enough. If nothing gets done then he can lead people to believe that it would have been better to let the prorogation stand; meanwhile he's running down the clock - I suspect he thinks he's going to prove that a team effort is pointless and fancies himself as some sort of Colonel H. Jones figure who's going to heroically storm the enemy EU position alone.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Iain Richards — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 16:03:56 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Just because it was declared unlawful did not make it wrong[/quote]

While I thinkn I know what you mean (there are some laws that are wrong and need changing) this was clear. The Supreme Court did have the right to judge, and their judgement was it was an illegal move. End of. To change this would require a change to the Magna Carta (almost!). It boils down to the executive is not above the law.

The commons last night was a truly horrid place and all need to consider their combatative stances. Johnson is a journalist, as said on Today, he's a journalist, he knows how to use words. So his words that compare the EU debate to a physical fight, almost a war, are not helpful. His response of humbug to comments about the threats MPs face was deplorable.

Yes, bring on an election and remove this toxic element.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Edward Jones — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:50:37 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]the judiciary do seem to be trying to thwart Brexit[/quote]

But the Prime Minister instructed the Monarch that the 5 week prorogation was in order to prepare a new Queen's Speech and was nothing to do with Brexit.

The Judiciary heard unchallenged evidence that a Queens Speech should only take 4 days to prepare, and nothing like 5 weeks. This evidence was unchallenged by the government. It's no wonder the decision was unanimous.

From The Times:

RE: UK Sovereignty

Bob Russell — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:39:51 GMT

The decision to prorogue Parliament was a political one and the judiciary are supposed to interpret the law. A High Court had decided this was territory that the judiciary should not enter but the Supreme court did so any way.

The Supreme Court is entering territory it has never done before. Under more normal conditions Parliament would go away and change the law so it was not unlawful. Clearly at the moment this would not be possible.

Just because it was declared unlawful did not make it wrong. Sometimes the law or lack of clarity caused by the lack of a written constitution is wrong.

Things have worked well without a written constitution for generations but this might just mean we need to create one. That is likely to cause arguments and battles for decades to come.

Democracy has temporarily fallen flat on its face in the UK. It is time for the electorate to decide which direction parliament should go in.

Government, Parliament and the Judiciary are ultimately answerable to the people. We are governed and judged by consent but there is a real danger that this may be lost and that would be a real concern IMO.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:32:43 GMT

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]There is no attempt at consensus[/quote]

What? That's what Mother Theresa tried for a couple of years and got precisely nowhere. The problem is that 'in' and 'out' are mutually exclusive concepts. Consensus on this is (as events have shown) impossible.

The only options are to go ahead and leave (deal or no deal) and annoy all those who want to remain. Or, cancel the whole shooting match and annoy all those who voted leave.

Those are the only options.

If you cancel the whole shooting match, the cost of that will be that few people will ever take part in a referendum again. That might not necessarily be a bad thing, but cancelling might also alienate a huge chunk of the population from engaging in the democratic process ever again.

[quote user="vetbl.locum"]PS no one has yet answer ed me as to how and when I am going to be better off after Oct 31[/quote]

Largely because nobody really knows.

But, there is a body of opinion that the EU is a failing institution / ideology and won't survive that much longer anyway, so one of the ways you might be better off is by getting off the bus before it drives into the brick wall, metaphorically speaking.

Or, as society faces a time of huge socio-technological change, you might find this country is at a big advantage by being able to adapt to changing circumstances quickly, without having to seek the approval of 26 other countries.

Either way, nobody has yet answered me as to how and when I am going to be better off if we remain.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Virginia Campbell — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 15:09:42 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]the judiciary do seem to be trying to thwart Brexit[/quote]

Eh? Their role was simply to examine and interpret to law to determine whether or not the prorogation of parliament was lawful. The consequences of their ruling is not really the court's problem. If you diagnose a dog with kennel cough and the owner says "But we are going on holiday tomorrow and he is meant to be going into kennels" and looks at you pleadingly, do you say "Oh, OK then he doesn't have kennel cough"? Of course not. The fact that they're going on holiday and the dog has kennel cough isn't your fault, doesn't make your diagnosis wrong and should not change your recommendations re: isolation and treatment.

RE: UK Sovereignty

Edward Jones — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 12:38:52 GMT

Demanding moderate language is not stifling of debate.

RE: UK Sovereignty

David Mills — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 12:07:35 GMT

It's nice to see the lefts thought police industry is thriving. It now appears you're not allowed, morally, to say dead in Parliament because of Jo Cox. Utterly bizarre. Stifling of debate is exactly what she wouldn't have wanted, but hey ho, let's score some cheap points from someone's death.

General election only way to sort this out. Tory majority and can repeal the nonsense legislation. The screeching diatribes coming from nobody lefty MPs and talk of a govt of national unity Magic Grandpa's lala land truly made real.