Vet suspended for kicking dog

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Bob Russell — Mon, 05 Aug 2019 13:20:03 GMT

Our owners don't seem to take exception to muzzles being used. With the exception of a quick but possibly painful clip of a split nail (example) I will not use muzzles as a means of allowing pain to be inflicted safely for me.

I explain it will act as a distraction and provides me with something to hold onto which is not the dog.

Why would a sensible owner object to a muzzle being used humanely?

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Glen McIntosh — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 14:35:23 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I would assume it could take a few minutes for the adrenaline rush to subside after being bitten???

[/quote]

Yes, but in most people without severe head injuries, their frontal lobes kick in pretty quick and suppressing most of their more basic impulses. Otherwise we would all be in trouble.

30 secs or a minute is long enough for this to take place. And for most of that time most people (well me at least) are wallowing in self pity, or trying to work out what the f..k just happened.

And this is one of the reasons why I like working in Hong Kong. Getting bitten is absolutely no fun whatsoever, anywhere. But here I have an assistant with me in the consultation room at all times for translation purposes, and they, not the owner, will be responsible for restraining the animal. Because owners are, almost without exception, universally hopeless at restraining animals. And clients here, for some reason, don’t seem to take it as a mortal insult or a sign of incompetence if you muzzle their pet (except recent English expats of course).

As they say, prevention is far far better...

Unfortunately, now, when I get bitten, I cant blame any one else since it is usually entirely my fault for not having taken proper precautions.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Anthony Todd — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 13:17:38 GMT

[quote user="Jill Butterworth"] how to manage a difficult dog[/quote]

Depending on how you define "difficult" I suppose, which is very important should anything untoward occur which results in a complaint or Etc.!

See: "scruffing cats".....

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Jill Butterworth — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 12:47:21 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]Which leads me to believe that the staffie in question was not really aggressive.[/quote]

That's a really good point. If you marry the two threads here about how to manage a difficult dog, we are almost universally acknowledging that even a spaniel can do significant damage if it's minded to.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Julie Innes — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 12:14:01 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Would a slap with the hand [after a snap from the dog!] be a pure reflex, but a kick [would be after some delay] be pre-meditated?

PS Where stands the reflex "hamster-flick"?

[/quote]

Yes, I think they are different. Hamster flick unfortunate, but totally understandable. Quick immediate slap with the hand reflexive. Removing animal from the room then kicking and stamping it- not normal! Any time I've been bitten, my immediate reflex is to get away from the animal, not take it away with me! I had an aggressive akita in this morning, needed to be sedated to examine its eyes. Tried to bite me and had to do the lead-in-the-door thing to jab it. I cannot imagine kicking that dog! I'd probably have lost a leg if I did. Which leads me to believe that the staffie in question was not really aggressive.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 11:29:49 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Would a slap with the hand [after a snap from the dog!] be a pure reflex, but a kick [would be after some delay] be pre-meditated?[/quote]

Kind of what I was getting at, in that I would assume it could take a few minutes for the adrenaline rush to subside after being bitten???

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Anthony Todd — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 09:08:38 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Surely there is a difference between a defensive action when a dog launches an unprovoked attack, and punishing a dog a few minutes later that bit during an unpleasant or painful procedure?

[/quote]

Would a slap with the hand [after a snap from the dog!] be a pure reflex, but a kick [would be after some delay] be pre-meditated?

PS Where stands the reflex "hamster-flick"?

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Peter Faulkner — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 10:34:57 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

We had an Australian locum, years ago, reported to the RCVS by a client. He had given an aggressive boxer an instant disciplinary smack of some sort. Behaviour immediately became acceptable. Owner went mad, RCVS contacted me an I stated my support for the locum on the grounds that he had prevented potential injury. I also stated that I would happily employ him again.

Heard no more after the case was closed.

[/quote]

Many years ago, I had a Yorkie bought in with a broken humerus. The owner asked me if I thought he might have been kicked? Remembering what my old boss once said after I asked him why so many owners ask questions like.. Do you think it's the fox? Do you think he's been shot? Do you think he's been kicked? He said it's probably because they kicked him - So I said to the Yorkie's owner, "It will be some form of trauma, why do you ask?" To which he replied, "Because I kicked him down the stairs." He was completely open about this and showed no remorse. I think nowadays I would be able to report him to the RSPCA, but in those days everything had to be confidential or it would be three lashes of the (RCVS) birch. Unfortunately, there is no Royal College of Pet Owners to complain to.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Gillian Mostyn — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 07:59:04 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Oh Gillian, you are better than this.[/quote]

Calm down dear. It's only social media.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 07:40:19 GMT

[quote user="David Mills"]Hell of a lot of virtue signalling[/quote]

Hmmm. David Mills I've always thought of virtue signalling as being something which people do outside of a debate.

In other words, if, unprompted, I share anything on social media which is in part designed to make it look like I subscribe to set of values that I think others should follow, that's virtue signalling.

What I don't really think of as virtue signalling is anything which happens in the context of a debate or discussion. I mean, in that context, how is it possible to distinguish between genuinely held opinion and virtue signalling?

What I mean is, I can be outraged about something (especially in a discussion) without my outrage being in any way designed to signal my virtue to others.

And isn't closing down a discussion with an accusation of virtue signalling as bad as closing down a discussion with virtue signalling itself?

I do take your point David Mills, I just don't think it's virtue signalling in this discussion. I'd say you just don't like things which seem a bit 'holier than thou', but that is slightly (but importantly) different to virtue signalling.

No?

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

David Mills — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:49:28 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="David Mills"]They profess a high moral opinion on something to the world in order to garner support, respect, or kudos, or to make themselves look like a good, upstanding, person.[/quote]

Is it virtue signalling to show distaste or disapproval at the illegal or unprofessional actions of others? Is it virtue signalling to be appalled at someone being mugged, or should we remember that the person doing the mugging may have had a tough life, or need to feed their child?

While I agree that judging others harshly in order to show out own moral high standing can be tiresome ... stones and glass houses etc .... it is still valid to condemn those who step outside what the rest of us would call normal, fallible, human behaviour. No?

[/quote]

Oh Gillian, you are better than this. Please don't generalise and, again, over moralise the situation.

It depends doesn't it.

We don't know the true motivation in this case. I find it immensely distasteful that fellow professionals of a veterinary surgeon have come out in this thread and been pretty bloody condemnatory of a fellow veterinary surgeon.

As it stands, on the facts of the case, I don't disagree with the ruling.

But, where I draw the line is these long, tedious posts saying "never" "unacceptable" etc. Yes, he did wrong, but do they really need hammering on here? No. Leave the intelligent, fellow professional to live, privately, in his shame.

"arlo asked us!" so what? It was your decisions to post hoc kick him when he was down. We, as a profession, I would hope, are better than that.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 23:36:34 GMT

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

David Mills — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 22:35:07 GMT

[quote user="Glen McIntosh"]”Jane Coaston of the The New York Times notes that in using the term "virtue signalling" one is "trying to signal something about their own values: that they are pragmatic, appropriately cynical, in touch with the painful facts of everyday life".^[10] In The Guardian, David Shariatmadari argues that this makes it "indistinguishable from the thing it was designed to call out" adding that it is "smug posturing from a position of self-appointed authority."^[11] Neoliberal political theorist and economist Sam Bowman, criticized the term claiming that "saying virtue signalling is hypocritical. It’s often used to try to show that the accuser is above virtue signalling and that their own arguments really are sincere[/quote]

Three bien pensant liberal (neoibersl ) metropolitan left elite try to close down those who criticise virtue signalling.

What a rabbit hole.

Virtue signalling is simple and what it means. It's people who project their "virtues" publicly. As in the Instagram generation or twitter idiots. They profess a high moral opinion on something to the world in order to garner support, respect, or kudos, or to make themselves look like a good, upstanding, person.

Islington. 5 years ago. Outraged at how areas weren't taking asylum seekers. Number they took? Less than 50. Out of hundreds of thousands.

Virtue signalling is de rigeur for the NYT, and the guardian, a lot of remoaners and pretty much the entire left. The problem is it stifles debate because the moral way is the only way. Everything else is inferior. Has there ever been a successful - socially or economically - true left government in the Western world? No. Virtue signalling is immature, naive, and ultimately, empty.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Anthony Todd — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 18:38:50 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

Surely there is a difference between a defensive action when a dog launches an unprovoked attack, and punishing a dog a few minutes later that bit during an unpleasant or painful procedure?

[/quote]

But not in the owner's eyes!

I can foresee a situation , where, because of legal or disciplinary concerns, every dog and cat may have to be sedated and/or muzzled before veterinary attention in case [a] the vet accuses the client [remember the vet suffered a career ending hand injury etc. etc.] before attention.... or [b] the client reports the vet for striking the animal for.....whatever.

Stupid,I know, but think of the possibility of successful damages claims?!

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Julie Innes — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 15:18:58 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]

Maybe my guilt never left me?

I hope that I am not reported to RCVS after admitting this? I don't want to be struck off even after retiring!

[/quote]

I smiled at this, Julian! It isn't the same thing at all, I guess we've all had occasions where we were a little sharp, spoke sternly to a dog, or even gave it a tap. But the fact this has come up as guilt all those years later shows that it isn't the "norm" for us! Also, clients will often overreact to us even speaking firmly to their animal, or restraining it.

The difference is that the vet did this away from the client, and it was his colleagues that were upset by his treatment. a tap on the nose/ head is very different from a couple of kicks and "stamping", which will not teach the dog anything useful at all!

I think you can sleep easy in your bed, Julian!

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 15:14:35 GMT

Surely there is a difference between a defensive action when a dog launches an unprovoked attack, and punishing a dog a few minutes later that bit during an unpleasant or painful procedure?

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Glen McIntosh — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 15:14:10 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Heard no more after the case was closed.[/quote]

Not today! The press and internet would be all over it, suitably embellished and with "suitable" pictures.

As I've been told on here often "Times Change"!

[/quote]

I’m not so sure. I think (and hope) that the PIC would still probably determine that there is no case to answer for the type of situation described by Bob, irrespective of any press or social media comment.

The case being discussed in this thread seems to be an order of magnitude more serious and rightly brought to the attention of the DC IMO. The DC decision on sanction seems proportionate to me as well, but no doubt will be seen as way to lenient to many members of the public.

I really don’t think it is “virtue signalling” to say that any form of violence towards animals or other people is wholly unacceptable. As far as I can see, that is really all that people have been saying on this thread.

No doubt there are a whole range potential underlying triggers and circumstances that might provide some understanding of why this person behaved in the way that they did, as well as provide some evidence that the behaviour was aberrant and that the perpetrator is not fundamentally evil. But that still doesn’t make the behaviour acceptable.

What really is detestable is the personal threats and racist comments made towards the respondent as a result of the media coverage, and he has my sympathy with respect to this.

Me, in the same situation as the respondent, I suspect I would probably let loose a torrent of expletives in a very loud voice directed at the owner, and possibly the dog as well. It has actually happened a couple of times, and on both occasions the owners have found the situation somewhat amusing, which has only served to enhance the fruitiness of my language. But everyone was apologetic after the after things had calmed down.

Thoughts of violence - hell yes - mostly towards the owner, and vivid, gratuitous and sometimes unusual.

Actual violence, not so far. Never say never I guess? But if I did do what this chap did then I would expect the same response from the RCVS.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Anthony Todd — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 13:53:06 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Heard no more after the case was closed.[/quote]

Not today! The press and internet would be all over it, suitably embellished and with "suitable" pictures.

As I've been told on here often "Times Change"!

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Bob Russell — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 13:28:42 GMT

Heard no more after the case was closed.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Anthony Todd — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 13:22:50 GMT

[quote user="Julian Earl"]Way back in about 1988 [/quote]

I had almost the same experience except it was a 30lb english bull terrier that went for me. I've posted it on here before.

Went round and apologised but never saw the client or the bloody dangerous beast again.....

I don't think owners, or parents, ever ever blame anyone but the whacker!

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Julian Earl — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 13:14:04 GMT

[quote user="George Cooper"]And, actually, it achieves absolutely nothing other than venting an uncontrolled anger.[/quote]I agree, "but there is a but", I'm afraid.

Way back in about 1988 I attended to a GSD puppy, aged about 3 months for vaccination and the young lady owning the dog lived just 400 yards away at the back of the practice. Anyway I was doing the standard general examination before administering the vaccine and whle doing that the puppy went for me with some determination. The owner did the common thing, saying, words to the effect of there, there Rover, there's a good boy, just sta still etc. and some other pointless platitudes. Meanwhile the puppy had another go, and then another, all without restraint by heowner. The puppy missed its targt, i.e. me, but I was cross partly with the puppy but also the silly attitude of the owner! My temper snapped and when the puppy next made a move for me a few seconds later, I slapped it fairly firmly on the top of its head with the flat of my hand! The little blighter froze there and then and did not move a muscle after that. However the young lady was upset and started sobbing. She asked if I had to do that? I did immediately apologise then pointed out, " You ' have noticed that he has immediately stopped trying to bite me though? Not much more was said but I felt guilty enough at making her cry, that after the evening surgery had finished I walked round to her house and apologised to her again, trying to explain that such behaviour has to be prevented in a puppy likely to grow into a big dog. She seemed to accept my apology and no more was spoken of the incident. Until now! Some 30-plus years later. Maybe my guilt never left me?

I hope that I am not reported to RCVS after admitting this? I don't want to be struck off even after retiring!

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:52:06 GMT

I swiped an old lady in the high street. Nearly took me out with her shopping trolley ... she ignored me and never even said sorry.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:32:10 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Is it ever appropriate, under any circumstances to physically contact, negatively, someone else's child?

Say the child kicks you, or spits in your face?

[/quote]

I swiped a young oik (about twelve or thirteen I'd guess) in the High Street. He'd nearly knocked a lady down while doing something stupid on his bicycle and ignored her, never even said sorry.

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:23:49 GMT

Glen McIntosh

As I said, pot ... kettle. (Or is that just a Northern England thing?)

RE: Vet suspended for kicking dog

Anthony Todd — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 12:09:55 GMT

Is it ever appropriate, under any circumstances to physically contact, negatively, someone else's child?

Say the child kicks you, or spits in your face?

Will the answer, in the mind of any pet owner, be the same if it is a dog or cat or any animal?