Required skills in a job applicant

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Beats — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 21:13:16 GMT

Back in the day when I sent out CV's, I had a traffic-light colour coded table. Green highlighting first column for Competencies obtained, Orange for "Successfully performed procedures"/Developing/Improving, Red for "Skills I have no experience in but would like to develop", or words to that effect. It was mainly surgeries I think, perhaps with a few practical skills, I think writing "consultation skills" looks a bit silly as no-one is going to claim they don't have this if >6months graduated.

At one memorable interview, it was on the job and I was asked to assess an emaciated boxer in a kennel - after careful palpation for quite some time, I concluded that there was an abdominal mass. In the flash of an eye it was through xray and on the op table and I was cursing my choice of cufflink as I found myself left scrubbing up to what turned out to be an end-to-end anastomsis. While the VDS would undoubtedly have had palpitations at the thought of the interviewee being wrist deep in such a surgery, it certainly helped to confirm that I wasn't bluffing on my CV regarding my experience prior to employing me!

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Andreia Dias — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 18:44:44 GMT

Well, when I was doing my internship at Glasgow, virtually all the final year students already had a job aligned for when they finished uni, so I'm guessing they've already been hired? (many of them likely absorbed by the 6 Big Ones I would assume)

Back to the topic of skills matrixes... They give an idea of current skills, but make you look pretty bad if you graduate most other places than not the UK, as you will typically have no relevant hands on experience in terms of surgery and be limited with clinical approaches to medical cases (much more limited resources - we get an extra skill, crystal ball reading...). Although they help employers understand the level of support that a candidate may need, they say nothing about the vet's skill to cope - I had literally zero experience when I started (as in, I hadn't even placed an IV catheter in a dog or a cat) and was doing routine ops on my own within the first three months, I also met a vet that was so traumatised by her first surgical experiences that she still didn't do surgery 1 year into her role, while one of the girls I've helped out was doing ops on her first two weeks despite only ever participating in workshops... We all start with the same skills matrix, but we are worth something different to the practices!

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 15:41:30 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Good point Anthony Dennison - perhaps more worthwhile when there are employees to choose from, rather than having to hire anyone with a pulse [/quote]

The odd thing is there are plenty of vets graduating, but no one I speak to seems to be getting any applicants. Where are all these new graduates ending up?!

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 15:36:27 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Dennison"]There is some merit to it, however with recruitment being as difficult as it is this may make things harder.[/quote]

Good point Anthony Dennison - perhaps more worthwhile when there are employees to choose from, rather than having to hire anyone with a pulse

That said, these 'requirements' would be entirely optional. I would expect a recruiter to specify them only when they are a real must have (or alternatively make sure both advertisers and jobseekers expectations are set correctly; we could position the 'requirements' as 'nice to haves', instead for example)

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Anthony Dennison — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 12:07:52 GMT

There is some merit to it, however with recruitment being as difficult as it is this may make things harder. I agree with what Sarah Keir said.

We have hired a couple of vets that had no clinical skills and minimal knowledge. We have stuck with them ('projects' - more ties to the area so less likely to be with us for 6-12 months until they are competent at day one skills then leave). We are starting to see the fruits of our labour now. Yes it is hard work, however they seem to appreciate the effort put in to them and work harder for it.

Required skill set could go two ways (even if verified because there are ways around it).

1) person lies, says they can do it all, can't.

2) person is put off by the advert because they feel they can't do it even though it seems the perfect job for them.

Employers shouldn't just be looking at what they can get out of their employees. They should be seeing what their employees can put in. The right attitude in a person, even if the skill set is lower, can make a big difference to the ambience of a practice team.

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 10:09:26 GMT

[quote user="Sammy82"]After having completed a couple of skills matrixes recently one problem I see is how skills are assessed.[/quote]

Thanks Sammy. I agree that to be of any value, a skills matrix should use well-defined objective terms. Being experienced at ophthalmology is just too woolly. Clearly any measurement needs to be of very specific tasks that are representative of a broader skill set.

As to objective terms, I wonder whether 'time taken' for a procedure is a good measure (or not?)

Also thinking that the important thing here is 'confidence' (and with it the ability to perform tasks in a reasonable period of time, without assistance).

So I think for our skills matrix I would be minded to list, say, three specific tasks from each discipline and ask you whether you feel:

a) incapable b) get by or c) confident

with the explanation that a) means you've never done it before, b) means you feel able, but could improve / may need assistance, and c) means you can be left alone to get on with it.

Does that work? Or something like it?

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Sammy82 — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:37:47 GMT

After having completed a couple of skills matrixes recently one problem I see is how skills are assessed. There were a number of specific tasks listed like cat spay etc. but also a number of topics. Options to tick were no experience, basic or experienced. Easy to answer for spay etc., not so easy to answer for "tumours" "ophthalmology".... I mean, when is it appropriate to tick experienced, do I need to be able to deal with a mammary mass and melting ulcers or operate on a piturity tumour and remove cataracts? A self-conscious person will likely self-assess differently to a very confident person, not reflecting their true capabilities.

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Iain Richards — Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:05:48 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]Not always.... viz: watch The Ashes, in fact any sport and anything involving manuality![/quote]

England rugby take the attitude - we can teach how to play the game, we can't teach how to be big (friend's son is U20 sqaud). Out an out talent is not as important. There is also an argument that "talent" is just short for "really liking something, so putting the time in is a joy, not "practice". (Obviously this excludes physically aspects, muscel twitch etc).

Applying this to our world, picking the ones who really want to intereact with clients and their animals is the first priority. Oh and never employing anyone who uses phrases like furbaby, pet-parent, pupper and other such infantile expressions!

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Alistair Graham-Evans — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 22:24:33 GMT

Self certification could work but independent verification of skills best for locums ? I am trying to be constructive and this would be a terrific scheme for matching locums with requirements.

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

David Mills — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 22:11:42 GMT

I think it's got legs.

Most employers these days don't supply references beyond dates worked. There have been several cases of successful suits against former employers going beyond that

We routinely use skill matrices for candidates. Yes, the interview is important, but, if anything, prior information about ability is very, very useful.

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 14:17:51 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Also awkward because I’ve asked for skills certification because I’m leaving but haven’t found an alternative job yet.[/quote]

I didn't imagine everyone asking for certification from an employer or colleague at the time when they planned to leave, but rather to seek certification whenever, so that it is there when you need it.

But I think you have already persuaded me that this probably wouldn't work.

What about self-certification in objective terms (as I said above), coupled with references?

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Alistair Graham-Evans — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 13:59:16 GMT

Also awkward because I’ve asked for skills certification because I’m leaving but haven’t found an alternative job yet. Let’s carry on though as if nothing has happened although everyone now knows I have no further interest in this place!

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 13:30:25 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]If I am a locum who do I ask to verify my skills? My last placement - that’s easy - you are only as good as your last placement. All set for advertising for the next placement.[/quote]

Yes, I had thought exactly that.

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]If I am a vet who qualified 2 - 3 years ago still in my first ( or maybe 2nd ) job, who do I ask to verify my work for the Vet Surgeon website ( job section)? My boss? Awkward. A colleague? Also awkward for them and me. [/quote]

But I hadn't thought it awkward for colleagues to verify. But now you mention it, I guess it could be. I mean, embarrassing if you ask me to certify you are good at something when actually I think you are pretty crap at it!

Which then brings me back to self-certification (which is what the vet at the start of this discussion first proposed). Self-certification would have to be in really objective terms, so it is easy to demonstrate.

For example: "I am comfortable performing a bitch spay, which typically takes me xx minutes barring complications"

Does that work?

The other suggestion from the person who proposed this idea was that self-certification was demonstrated with examples, though I am still trying to get my head around that!

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Anthony Todd — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 11:58:10 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]Skills can be taught.[/quote]

Not always.... viz: watch The Ashes, in fact any sport and anything involving manuality!

PS I would accept "Skills can be told", I think "front foot to the line of the ball" but doing it??

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Alistair Graham-Evans — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 11:55:21 GMT

I do think it’s a good idea. I would like to think we are positive about affirmation of the worth of our staff to the clinic during reviews and often in passing during the day when we see a job done well. Everyone is a vital part of the team and hopefully we all recognise that without our nurses and receptionists we vets cannot function. If I am a vet who qualified 2 - 3 years ago still in my first ( or maybe 2nd ) job, who do I ask to verify my work for the Vet Surgeon website ( job section)? My boss? Awkward. A colleague? Also awkward for them and me. If I am a locum who do I ask to verify my skills? My last placement - that’s easy - you are only as good as your last placement. All set for advertising for the next placement.

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 30 Jul 2019 08:29:43 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Being a bit slow here Arlo. [/quote]

Probably not!

The way I see it is:

1. Vets get their skill sets verified. The bulk of that is done once (ie it is assumed that once you are verified as being able to perform a bitch spay at 2:00am, in a thick fog, drunk, supported by an anaesthetist who speaks only Afrikaans, who is also drunk, in under 3 minutes, you have no need to revalidate later).

2. We then have two types of vets with skill sets. Locums and non locums.

3. Both sets then have an opportunity to set their profile to: a) actively looking for a job, b) not actively looking for a job or c) not looking for a job.

4. My plan would then be to

a) allow everyone to search for locums with a given skill set FOC for the time being. I might introduce a charge of somewhere around £50-£100 per annum for locums to be listed on VetSurgeon, with various additional features to help 'market' their services.

b) allow people who advertise a job vacancy ALSO (within the current price) to search the VetSurgeon database of members for anyone who is either actively looking or not actively looking (but not anyone who is not looking) for a job, AND who meets the skill set required for the job.

So ...

It's not so much about replacing interviews or references, but about finding matching candidates.

That said, if I was searching for a candidate, and I found that they had a skill set verified by people I know on VS (and it is, of course, a very small veterinary world), then that might be enough for me.

Is this half-brained?! (it wouldn't be the first time). I think one also has to remember that if I am building it for locums, then it is no additional cost to provide it for everyone to use, or not!

Also don't forget that the plan is to provide this service for veterinary nurses too. There I think there is an even bigger benefit, which is that by getting nurses to verify their practical skills gets them and the practice thinking about their worth to the business (does that make sense, because I think it is really quite a big deal).

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Alistair Graham-Evans — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 23:39:23 GMT

Being a bit slow here Arlo.

I can understand getting and updating a verified skill set for locums, but for permanent positions I fail to see a advantage.

Even if a vet swaps jobs once a year then verifying a skill set is not quicker than providing a reference - and would be difficult to be recently relevant if your employer does not know you are considering a move. As discussed, I think it is a terrific idea for locums.

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:51:04 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]Skills can be taught. I would argue that mindset and personality as a fit for the role is more important. And that cannot be gauged in a skills matrix - that is what an interview is for.[/quote]

Broadly yes, but wouldn't you agree that some practices don't have the time or resources, or perhaps even just the inclination to teach certain skills ... they want to employ someone with those skills right now.

But I wasn't suggesting for one second that a skills matrix rendered an interview obsolete!

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Sarah Keir — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 15:37:46 GMT

Skills can be taught. I would argue that mindset and personality as a fit for the role is more important. And that cannot be gauged in a skills matrix - that is what an interview is for.

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 13:23:15 GMT

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Sorry Arlo Guthrie Esq. Spey is a Scottish river. Spay is to neuter a female. [/quote]

Sorry - copy and pasted from something else in haste!

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]This could all be too tricky[/quote]

Unless we find a way to make it less so

The plan is for VS members to be able to attest that they have seen a colleague perform certain tasks to a certain standard.

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Ultrasound could be anything from finding a bladder to measuring fractional shortening of the left ventricle.[/quote]

So 'competent ultrasound' could be made up of a number of tasks, eg find bladder and measure left ventricle.

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Someone who has worked in a team isn’t necessarily a good team player. [/quote]

Of course. And what better accreditation than to have the other members of their team vouch for how they work as a team player!

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Many of these skills are best investigated by following up a reference with a phone call.[/quote]

I was going to say that this isn't going to eliminate the need for references. Then I sat here thinking 'what is the point, then?'. And then I changed my mind. Provided complete transparency (ie name / practice of the endorser is shown), then it may well be that a subsequent telephone call isn't really going to add much.

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]However similar categories could be useful and a portfolio ( confirmed by feedback) built up for locums.[/quote]

Yes, that was the original idea - but I thought (as did the person who rang me), that there is a broader application ...

RE: Required skills in a job applicant

Alistair Graham-Evans — Mon, 29 Jul 2019 12:46:30 GMT

Sorry Arlo Guthrie Esq. Spey is a Scottish river. Spay is to neuter a female.

This could all be too tricky eg Ultrasound could be anything from finding a bladder to measuring fractional shortening of the left ventricle. Someone who has worked in a team isn’t necessarily a good team player. Many of these skills are best investigated by following up a reference with a phone call. However similar categories could be useful and a portfolio ( confirmed by feedback) built up for locums.