Salaries in job advertisements

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 24 Jul 2019 10:37:56 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]A minimum offer might risk looking a bit stingy if they are actually willing to go up for the right person. [/quote]

My hope is that jobseekers will understand 'min offer' as exactly what it is. The starting point for a discussion. The opening bid. The least that the employer will pay for someone who meets the absolute minimum requirements but does not exceed them.

I would expect / hope someone with higher qualifications / experience to look at the advert and realise that they might be able to negotiate higher. Especially in combination with the main advert description, where the advertiser can always say 'we'll offer more for someone who exceeds the min requirements.'

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

vs0u — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:29:47 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Personally, I would use the 'Minimum offer' feature on vetsurgeon and vetnurse and err on the side of being a bit conservative (because it is just the opener for discussion). Or a range if I really was open to a wide range of experience and wanted more experienced readers to see they were in my price band at a glance.[/quote]

For me a range (even if it is 20k wide) is more useful because I can place myself within that range depending on what the advert is asking for/my level of experience /ability. A minimum offer might risk looking a bit stingy if they are actually willing to go up for the right person.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Sarah Keir — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:30:57 GMT

“Salary neg.” is read as “negligible”, not “negotiable”.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Sarah Keir — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:23:38 GMT

Not at all surprising to us employees and job seekers! Hopefully eye-opening to employers!

Have your eyes opened more and read about what job seekers are looking for on my blog

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:14:46 GMT

[quote user="Sarah Keir"]I look forward to reading the results.[/quote]

Here you go Sarah Keir https://www.vetsurgeon.org/news/b/veterinary-news/archive/2019/07/22/52-of-vets-39-very-annoyed-39-by-adverts-which-describe-the-salary-as-39-competitive-39.aspx

If anything, I was expecting the results to be a little less dramatic with veterinary surgeons, but this strikes me as pretty conclusive. Certainly if I was advertising a job for a vet,

a) I would NEVER use the words 'competitive' or 'generous' or anything else for that matter. If I really, really, really didn't want to give the number away, then I just would not mention a salary at all.

BUT

b) I am tight and always like to extract the most from my £1. So unless there was a very, very, very compelling reason why not, I WOULD advertise a salary, especially if I was advertising for a veterinary nurse.

Personally, I would use the 'Minimum offer' feature on vetsurgeon and vetnurse and err on the side of being a bit conservative (because it is just the opener for discussion). Or a range if I really was open to a wide range of experience and wanted more experienced readers to see they were in my price band at a glance.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Sarah Keir — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 13:03:49 GMT

I look forward to reading the results. Vets and nurses I talk to rate salary very highly on their requirements for a job. Having been through the process of applying for job and knowing how much I am worth, I can say that some practices are not being realistic about the salary they need to pay to attract Quality staff. It is a waste of time for both parties if after interviews and travelling across the country, the maximum they will offer is 20% less than anyone else! I would prefer this information to be more up-front.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:23:12 GMT

[quote user="Mark Hedberg"]Good grief, what a nightmare. Sympathies and a speedy recovery for all![/quote]

Thanks Mark :)

Meanwhile, very interesting (I think) numbers coming out of my salary survey. I think conclusive evidence that anyone trying to recruit a veterinary professional is bonkers not to advertise a salary, more so if they are trying to recruit a nurse than a vet. Now to write it up ...

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Mark Hedberg — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:57:32 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Does anyone have a shit conductor they could sell me? You know, like a lightning conductor, except ...

(Just had our five days off per annum from caring for eldest daughter. Went to Eyebeefa, where, on day 3, our younger daughter got a nasty ear infection / glandular fever flare up, so we ended up nursing her in a darkened hotel room for the remaining 2 days, and cancelling a planned fishing boat trip. She's still too ill to fly home, so I had to come back on my own and collect our eldest, who is also ill now. It never bloody ends ).

I digress. Just checked and there have been nearly 1,200 survey responses. If I exclude the partials, 1,150, which is a good turn out. I'm going to crunch the numbers today, and report back later.

[/quote]

Good grief, what a nightmare. Sympathies and a speedy recovery for all!

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:26:19 GMT

Does anyone have a shit conductor they could sell me? You know, like a lightning conductor, except ...

I digress. Just checked and there have been nearly 1,200 survey responses. If I exclude the partials, 1,150, which is a good turn out. I'm going to crunch the numbers today, and report back later.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Mark Hedberg — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:20:06 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Very interesting ... this has obviously touched a nerve as there have been 1041 responses to the survey already, which is a lot.

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Location is SO important. I think you underestimate the importance of this.[/quote]

Funny you should mention that. We are having a freshen up of the design of the home page on VetSurgeon, and various other bits and pieces, and I was discussing only yesterday how I want to promote the location over the name of the practice in the list of latest jobs!

[/quote]

Definitely agree that location is extremely important, if a job isn't where i want to be (or need to be) then i move on.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:15:51 GMT

Very interesting ... this has obviously touched a nerve as there have been 1041 responses to the survey already, which is a lot.

[quote user="Kate Richardson"]Location is SO important. I think you underestimate the importance of this.[/quote]

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Kate Richardson — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 07:38:04 GMT

Some thoughts

Newly qualified vets may place more importance on whether salary is displayed following 5 years of deprivation

Sarah’s points ref experience are relevant but by now I know what I want from a job (meaning the actual job/practice ethos/facilities etc) and what I’m worth so to speak- so I would be happy with ‘salary according to experience’ or to be discussed at interview, and if I was offered an interview after applying, I would expect that practice to have taken my experience into consideration and be open to a discussion.

Location is SO important. I think you underestimate the importance of this. It’s probably the first thing that helps you narrow down your search

ps I’m not in the market for a job right now

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Sarah Keir — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 21:40:34 GMT

It is imperative that ad contain a salary expectation. It is currently an employees market, especially for experienced vets, so you ad must say what you can off the person applying - and don't list toys or say there is cake on Fridays. If you would like to read more about this www.sarahthevet.com Having been through the process of looking for employment recently, I can say that it would of saving me a whole load of time if an idea of salary was there at the start. Along with the practice location.

Arlo - a, b/c, a

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 19:06:43 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I disagree with putting them [salaries] in adverts for the reasons given.[/quote]

Michael Woodhouse, fair enough but a few things to consider (and I am only explaining my thinking here, not trying to teach granny to suck eggs).

First of all, advertising is not really about what you, the employer or advertiser, agrees or disagrees with. It's just as much about finding out what your market (in this case prospective employees) want to hear, and telling them.

The point of this survey is to see whether it puts you at a substantial disadvantage if you do not advertise the salary, so you can then decide whether or not you think their desire to know what you are offering outweighs your desire not to advertise it. In other words, to help you maximise the response to your advert.

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]I also wonder how many people look at 'package' value and if I advertise salary from £25K and someone else says from £30k do I look tight despite offering practice car etc.[/quote]

That's an interesting point. On VetSurgeon and VetNurse Jobs, we give the ability to advertise various benefits, eg pension, RCVS membership etc. So if you are offering all those benefits, and they are displayed alongside the salary, then you should not look tight!

Still, perhaps I should go one step further and put a financial value on those, and then display the total salary + benefits.

Lastly, I don't want to prejudge what this survey is going to find, but my suspicion is that probably vet nurses are more likely to want to know what the salary is because there is probably greater variability, and anecdotally there are more jobs for nurses where the salary is so low, you might struggle to pay the mortgage.

Will be very interesting to see.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 17:20:23 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]

I'm surprised we've not seen more standardisation of salaries with the rise of the corporates - are individual practices able to set their own?

[/quote]

In our case we have freedom to offer but this come with a limitation. The offer has to be approved higher up and in line with some requirements established by the corporate .

But how else would you do it if you own a few practices? Would you allow one of your practices to overspend without justification? The difference here is that if you own 5 practices, that justification can be discussed in a case-by-case basis, if you own 100, it has to be a calculation based on your practice numbers. This calculation isn't the only factor that determines a salary but it is one to take into account.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Michael Woodhouse — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 16:57:56 GMT

I'm surprised we've not seen more standardisation of salaries with the rise of the corporates - are individual practices able to set their own?

I disagree with putting them in adverts for the reasons given. I also wonder how many people look at 'package' value and if I advertise salary from £25K and someone else says from £30k do I look tight despite offering practice car etc. Maybe word it as 'package value' rather than salary?

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Francisco Gomez — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 15:30:50 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

But strangely: What kind of impressions does it give you if a practice advertises a job without stating the salary: POSITIVE.

[/quote]

If I'm looking for a surgeon, I will have a figure in mind, but of course this figure might change after the interview, and probably at the review, where I would be gauging if I can afford a rise over inflation for the next paypack, and if I think their work worth even more than that rise.

Numbers draw attention, of course, as an employee and as an employer. But setting a salary before you meet the person can be seen as a cowardly behaviour. It's like saying that the pay has been set and you can take no responsibility over it.

Unfortunately the rise of corporation (which includes me, I'm happy to disclose), means that the person who interviews you does have some extra limitations on deciding that figure AND, the constant *popping* of practices without having people ready to staff them is, in my view, a major problem in the profession.

They have opened 2 branches from practices (not my corporate) not 1 mile from my own (established >50yrs ago or so I believe) in the last 5 years or so. Another one about to open soon. All three looking for staff at the time of writing. How can you offer decent salaries if there isn't enough clients to share between all of us?

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 13:04:32 GMT

Hmm interesting ... someone has done the survey already as follows:

1) a vet

2) Reads and responds to adverts which contain a salary first

4) Mildly irritating to see jobs advertised as competitive.

But strangely: What kind of impressions does it give you if a practice advertises a job without stating the salary: POSITIVE.

Given replies to other questions, that seemed very strange to me. I have capitalised the word 'WITHOUT' in the question in case someone misread the question.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 12:23:48 GMT

Here we go, I have used your feedback to tweak the survey and it is now live here:

https://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/5110214/Should-veterinary-salaries-be-advertised

Plan to email to all members on Monday, so if anyone spots a howler before then, please let me know!

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Virginia Campbell — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 11:05:36 GMT

Haven't looked for a permanent job for over a decade so I'm not really your target but

a c b

For the second question I would immediately think they're going to deal me down as hard as possible.

Last question- yes is mildly annoying ; I wouldn't mind it too much if it had "commensurate with experience" attached.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Kate Richardson — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:59:26 GMT

Question 3 - change to ‘do you find it annoying to read adverts .... and if so how annoying‘:

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Nicola Cole — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 19:29:41 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Can I steer everyone back to the OP

[/quote]

Yes boss , sorry.

The last question is a bit leading other than that I think they're fine.

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:56:47 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"](I feel i'm making a hash of explaining this!)[/quote]

No, you've done a first class job explaining, and thank you.

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]This feels a bit leading...I think mainly as it starts with "insanely annoying" which doesn't feel very scientific. [/quote]

I think I'd rather reverse the order to make it seem less leading, than change the verbiage. I think it will give advertisers a better sense of the consequence of not advertising a salary (I suspect the answer might end up being mildly irritating, but I really don't know. Perhaps on average nobody minds and I am quite wrong about all of this!)

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:46:18 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

a) Positive - the job isn't about the money

b) Neutral - it's neither here nor there

c) Negative - I think it looks unprofessional

[/quote]

You might need to change the "qualifiers" on this one, as they are a bit specific. For example, for c) I wouldn't think it looked unprofessional, per se, but I would possibly assume that they were paying at the low end of a range of they weren't proud to display it. So I feel it's a negative, but not for the reason you've given... (I feel i'm making a hash of explaining this!)

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

a) Insanely annoying. It's a waste of my time and yours to ring and find our definition of 'competitive' is not the same.

b) Mildly irritating.

c) Not at all annoying.

d) I am pleased if the salary is not displayed

[/quote]

This feels a bit leading...I think mainly as it starts with "insanely annoying" which doesn't feel very scientific. It might be better to change it to the standard/boring survey wording of "very negative/ negative/ neither negative nor positive/ positive/ very positive".

RE: Salaries in job advertisements

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:11:16 GMT

Can I steer everyone back to the OP, which is what you think of the questions as a way of testing what people think.

(But BTW, I think the dislike of ads without salaries is more of an issue for veterinary nurses than vets, which is perhaps unsurprising when 'competitive salary' is more likely to mean 'minimum wage' in real life. It also seems to me that other professions don't seem to have a problem advertising salaries despite variable experience/skills (for example, many more architect jobs on here show the salary: https://www.ribaappointments.com/jobs/architect/)