Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Aine Seavers — Sun, 30 Jun 2019 02:36:17 GMT

Here in Australia such abuse does exist but it is getting on the radar. Recent updates suggest that they can only be unpaid as long as they are there as 'observers'. The minute you ask them to do any work then they have to be paid. We have always paid-even for a work trial for a morning to see who makes the short list-it I ask someone to work, then I should pay them.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Anthony Todd — Sat, 29 Jun 2019 16:08:47 GMT

Of course in a large pyramidal organisation, as a lot of the corporates are, it is so easy for those not at any personal interface to make a "regulation" knowing that they personally won't have to eyeball a tearful young girl; ever!

The rest of the large organisation won't know who made the decree; just that it's "policy"....

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Rob Loxley — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 22:18:11 GMT

Regarding the legalities (as separate to a moral argument), here is relevant government advice https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-minimum-wage-work-experience-and-internships specifically "students working as a required part of a UK-based further or higher education course don’t qualify for the minimum wage if their placement with you or your organisation does not exceed 1 year"

So 3-4 month degree placement students would differ to the 'traditional' 2-3yr course day-release students. The OP says that they are 'living like this for two years' which is more than 1 year.

To be a volunteer they would have to be "working for a charity, voluntary organisation, associated fund raising body or a statutory body" which doesn't sound like the case in the OP.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Clive Ansell — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 18:42:27 GMT

[quote user="vs0u "]I guess there are more career options open to someone with a degree which justifies it slightly? [/quote]

Not sure that there is, every Tom, Dick and Harry has a degree these days. When I was a student, standing joke was "what do you say to someone with a humanities degree" - "big mac and fries please"

[quote user="vs0u "]Although I think that they ought to be paid if their work is replacing another paid member of staff.[/quote]

I think that is the crux of this debate. If they are there in addition too, and are being taught and chaperoned by trained staff as past of their training it may be almost be possible to justify not paying them (For the record I think they should be paid) and as far as I understand it is grey area legally. However, if they are there working in place of or instead of paid staff then they should be fully employed and paid.

Interestingly, on another thread, folk where praising capitalism on how successful big business generates wealth and looks after everyone. It is the same system that has deregulated the work place and allowed this type of exploitative practice to take place.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

vs0u — Fri, 28 Jun 2019 17:12:56 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]

Just the alternative view

In human nursing they are expected to take on a 3 year course, pay £11250/annum and living expenses and work for the NHS albeit as trainees

[/quote]

That's for a degree course though - vns don't get paid for working on placement as part of a degree either, and have to pay tuition fees

I guess there are more career options open to someone with a degree which justifies it slightly?

Although I think that they ought to be paid if their work is replacing another paid member of staff.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

rhmrcvs — Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:44:31 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]

[quote user="rhmrcvs"]we employ a nurse who had been at a cvs practice for 2 or 3 years unpaid. Arrangement was 2 weeks at college then 2 weeks at the practice. [/quote]

Really? CVS policy is that not even school age volunteers can stay for more than one year. They are very cautious to obey employment laws and certainly all student nurses were paid at my practice.

The exception were HE nurses who just attended on their work placements.

[/quote] yes, really, was the standard nvq route. Cvs also now own the company that give the qualifications. College that we use dont use the CVS controlled qualification.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 25 Jun 2019 13:52:58 GMT

[quote user="rhmrcvs"]we employ a nurse who had been at a cvs practice for 2 or 3 years unpaid. Arrangement was 2 weeks at college then 2 weeks at the practice. [/quote]

Really? CVS policy is that not even school age volunteers can stay for more than one year. They are very cautious to obey employment laws and certainly all student nurses were paid at my practice.

The exception were HE nurses who just attended on their work placements.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

rhmrcvs — Tue, 25 Jun 2019 07:00:50 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

I've reposted this on VetNurse.co.uk to see whether any members over there have experienced this.

I don't know whether it's illegal or not (not a lawyer), but it is certainly exploitation. Of course it is. It exploits the fact that employers know there is an excess of people who want to work with animals, and who are often prepared to do so for below market rates.

I guess a lot of employers exploit that fact a teency weency bit, and that's fair enough. Like anything else, it's partly about supply and demand.

But this - being told you will be paid NOTHING for two years whilst you train - is outrageous. Apart from anything else, it means the practice is saying that you contribute NOTHING to the business in the meantime. That is plainly a lie.

I think if there is evidence this is happening, it is an absolute disgrace. Totally unethical.

Can you imagine the field day that the press would have if it found out that a big corporate was treating (mainly) vulnerable young girls in this way? Can you imagine how it would reflect on a supposedly caring profession more broadly?

[/quote]we employ a nurse who had been at a cvs practice for 2 or 3 years unpaid. Arrangement was 2 weeks at college then 2 weeks at the practice.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Thomas Johnson — Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:51:03 GMT

[quote user="Peter Faulkner"]

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Apologies for posting AnOn; I don't want to jeopardise my work by being seen to criticise an employer!

[/quote]

That's sad.

Are all corporate employees this fearful?

Can you be sacked for criticising an unfair / illegal work practice?

[/quote]

My understanding is that all large employers (which will include all of the well known corporate veterinary companies) have a legal obligation to set aside a significant amount of money to pay for apprenticeships, and if that money isn't spent then it goes to the government, not back to the company. However if the students are self funding they may not be classed as apprentices I suppose, even so not paying them sounds pretty dodgy. I agree with others who have suggested speaking to someone higher up the hierarchy within the corporate structure, if this is illegal and they are unaware of it it is the parent company who will be fined and they may be very keen to put a stop to this.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Lucy Fleming — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 15:35:50 GMT

[quote user="Peter Faulkner"]

That's sad.

Are all corporate employees this fearful?

Can you be sacked for criticising an unfair / illegal work practice?

[/quote]

It is sad, but I think it would be the same for the employee of a practice behaving this way, whether they were corporate or independent. The idea of it being a large corporate is "worse" is suppose in terms of the number of people involved, and the fact that they definitely ought to know their responsibilities backwards and forwards (there's a vanishingly small argument for an independent practice being misguided/ confused etc but I suspect that would not hold water legally, ignorance of the law being no excuse etc).
I don't think you could be sacked, and any attempts to make life so miserable that you leave would likely be constructive dismissal, but I can certainly understand people wanting to avoid that.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Peter Faulkner — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 15:27:44 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]

Apologies for posting AnOn; I don't want to jeopardise my work by being seen to criticise an employer!

[/quote]

That's sad.

Are all corporate employees this fearful?

Can you be sacked for criticising an unfair / illegal work practice?

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

gdbvet — Sat, 22 Jun 2019 01:14:13 GMT

Cute way to reduce labour costs.The more students the better.These types of shenanigans are tried on vets as well.Why people put up with this rubbish is beyond me.Just walk."A slave is a slave because he allows himself to be enslaved".

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 20:02:44 GMT

It really is illegal. The only exemptions that could possibly apply are that they are volunteers .... In which case they can decide not to go to work with no repercussions, or else a traineeship of under 1 year duration.

https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage/who-gets-the-minimum-wage

If they are being expected to be on a set rota and have a specific list of tasks they are expected to complete, they are working and are entitled to minimum wage.

There are large fines for not complying.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 18:33:35 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

[quote user="Julie Innes"]have they signed anything?[/quote]

Would that really make a difference, that they've got some 16 year old girl to sign her life away?

[/quote]

If it's illegal, it doesn't matter what she signed, the contract would be null and void.

Quite recently a fairly well-known member of this profession, who is also a farrier, was prosecuted successfully: for paying an apprentice, not nothing, but less than the minimum wage. When he was found guilty of course it went to the Disciplinary Committee and I think he was suspended from the Register.

If these nurses are being supported by the Bank of Mum and Dad, sooner or later Mum and Dad are going to be taking legal advice.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Kate Richardson — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 15:48:28 GMT

Anon- I would contact the corporate HR head office and discuss it anonymously with them

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Neil Wheadon — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 14:25:47 GMT

Just the alternative view

In human nursing they are expected to take on a 3 year course, pay £11250/annum and living expenses and work for the NHS albeit as trainees

A friend's son wanted to be a paramedic in London. They wanted 1000hours/annum free labour as part of the course.

I'm not saying this is right, but the comparisons are there

Neil

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 14:01:30 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]have they signed anything?[/quote]

Would that really make a difference, that they've got some 16 year old girl to sign her life away?

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Julie Innes — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:30:40 GMT

I don't pay my SVNs, but they are not employed by me, they are sent to the practice on block release, and a lot of time and paperwork goes into training them. they are not here all the time, and at the college's timetable, not mine. In the past, when I have worked at practices that took on nurses and then trained them, they were still paid (albeit probably minimum wage!) So I guess it depends on the situation.

Are the SVNs in this situation made aware that they will not be paid while training when they first take the job? have they signed anything?

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Bob Russell — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 13:01:48 GMT

No idea about the legality in these specific circumstances but I presume nothing was written in their terms of employment.

I would have thought this might come under the rules for unpaid internships but there is a link below:

https://www.gov.uk/employment-rights-for-interns

Not much of an employer in my opinion to even have this cross their minds.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Iain Richards — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 12:55:32 GMT

If the situation is exactly as described it's unethical. It's probably illegal, as a quick look suggests that min wage applies for all training. Anon - I suggest you ensure this is absolutely accurate, then check the legality with BVA legal helpline. If not BVA member, contact your BVA area rep and get them to raise it.

It stinks, frankly.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 12:30:48 GMT

I've reposted this on VetNurse.co.uk to see whether any members over there have experienced this.

I guess a lot of employers exploit that fact a teency weency bit, and that's fair enough. Like anything else, it's partly about supply and demand.

I think if there is evidence this is happening, it is an absolute disgrace. Totally unethical.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 11:58:57 GMT

I agree...illegal.

I have not personally come across this situation. The only SVNs I have seen working FOC are those who have come to the practice on their block release from a university degree.

RE: Is it just me or is this exploitation?!

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 21 Jun 2019 11:31:23 GMT

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]When it comes to beginning their nurse training they are told that student nurses are not paid for their time in practice as this is now "training" [/quote]

I'm pretty sure this is just plain illegal.