Just remind me - Brexit

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Iain Richards — Mon, 05 Aug 2019 09:16:14 GMT

Bonkers isn't it? Yet the Brexiteers just refuse to see it. There is a huge irony that those who championed the rebellion against the political elite are now being deceived by a different, but same, political elite.

Do you remember the last section of Animal Farm, about the old mare looking into the farmhouse. I had to look it up to be sure, "The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Robert FalconerTaylor — Mon, 05 Aug 2019 08:14:21 GMT

Interesting article in the Lancet re- food shortages, public panic etc. It's open access, Arlo - How do you upload pdf files into a comment - I can only see links for images & video clips.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(19)31769-6/fulltext

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Alistair Graham-Evans — Fri, 02 Aug 2019 15:01:28 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

He's right, we've had a singularly defeatist attitude to these negotiations; a lack of confidence which has led to us

[/quote]

I'm a vet. I don't do optimism. Optimism makes things happen that I can't fix. For example: patient's death.

[/quote] I may not be optimistic about the prognosis for an individual but I am optimistic about my ability to deal with it and form a plan, encourage the team and try and make the best of it. Too much pessimism leads to self-determined defeatism. If I ask everyone what they want and then enable those in the minority I create discontent and split the team down the middle. If I repetitively promise one thing and do another then I lose the respect and support of everyone. If I dither forever and fail to make a decision and act on it then I fail as a leader. If I have individuals in the team who consistently and spitefully try and damage the outcome of a challenge I remove them. Doesn’t this sound familiar, all be it simplistic. In the end you need to shit or get off the potty.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Chris Geddes — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 15:18:35 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]they were not paid a high enough salary[/quote]

Arlo, I'd be f***ing delighted to be paid £79,468 a year. I appreciate it might be small beans compared to their city chums, but that in no way justifies theft (which, when it comes down to it, is what they were doing)

[/quote]

At the time of the expenses scandal, MPs were earning £65k. 79k is current salary.

A friend of mine was an MP, unfortunately lost his seat at the last election. When he first became an MP, he was faced with a barrage of Facebook abuse about him having his snout at the trough. He left a job earning £130k to become an MP. He's gone back to a higher salary now. Not many (any?) do it for the money! He's never worked in the city!

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Bob Russell — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 13:40:25 GMT

Dropping Pound is good for exports, not good for imports of raw ingredients. Not unhelpful if you are starting to sell into new markets.

If a better negotiating stance had been taken earlier then this may well have been more threat than cost.

If you are going to negotiate, you don't give up key cards at the beginning. The UK has had the reputation for being hard negotiators. What a laugh the EU must have had when they found out it was bluff.

At least it is unclear if Boris is bluffing or not. After the embarrassment of Mrs May I would say about time too!

Someone has to be decisive one way or another as uncertainty and fannying around like a ballerina in hobnailed boots is doing more harm than Brexit IMO!

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Iain Richards — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 11:23:14 GMT

It's good to see that the government are making provisions for Brexit and there is money to help businesses.

So when does the UK get to see a return on investment of this money plus the impact of a steadily declining pound?

Still waiting for how medicines are to remain available at the same price...

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 21:01:19 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]they were not paid a high enough salary[/quote]

[/quote]

Well said. I would love to earn £79k+ :)

Seriously though, a big part of being part of a government, even if "only" a backbencher, is showing a good example. Perhaps I'm a naive optimist in that regard, but if Boris can be an optimist, why can't I?

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Lucy Fleming — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 00:06:04 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]they were not paid a high enough salary[/quote]

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Bob Russell — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:24:27 GMT

Boris is not everyones cup of tea but he won a scolarship to Eton, excelled at Oxford except for his unsatisfactory upper second class degree. Perhaps a bit too much politics and not enough application.

Trump is a crazy and dangerous idiot. He believes airplanes existed in the war of independence and considers himself a good friend of the Prince of Whales!

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Iain Richards — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 17:17:52 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I do not believe that rich politicians just sit there thinking "I'm alright, Jack" or making decisions based on that premise.[/quote]

I'm sure you are right, it's not deliberate. Mainly becasue the deliberate ones are running very large companies. However, individual wealth can create a complacency about the consequences.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:57:37 GMT

Fair enough - I’ve edited my post.

but I stand by my despair of politicians in general. We have no one of gravitas, no one of significant stature , and no one who seems capable of resolving the mess we are in

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:54:19 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]Arlo these are people who thought it was perfectly acceptable to fiddle their expenses on a grand scale for years at tax payers expense.[/quote]Stephen Courtney They weren't fiddling their expenses, or at least most of them weren't. We created a system where a) they were not paid a high enough salary, and b) it was widely considered acceptable to claim for your duck house etc. Sure, it looked dreadful, but I do think the problem was with the system.

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]it is heartwarming to see that we will shortly have our very own mini Trump[/quote]

Forgive me, but whatever you think of Boris, that is complete and utter claptrap. One thing Boris is not is a mini-Trump. For a start, Boris is very intelligent and well read, which is hardly an accusation you would level at Trump.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Stephen Courtney — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:34:10 GMT

Arlo these are people who thought it was perfectly acceptable to fiddle their expenses on a grand scale for years at tax payers expense. The sense of entitlement and arrogance displayed was appalling, and is to a large extent why politicians as a whole are reviled by the general populace.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:08:09 GMT

[quote user="Iain Richards"]It's easy for the likes of Boris to be optimistic, he's wealthy enough to cope with any adverse impact of no trade deals, higher export tariffs and higher prices due to extra border checks. Even if he's the shortest PM in history, or resigns over a scandal, he'll still be loaded with after dinner speeches and pifflewaffle in the Telegraph.[/quote]

I have greater faith in human nature, myself.

I do not believe that rich politicians just sit there thinking "I'm alright, Jack" or making decisions based on that premise. I think most, if not all genuinely care about our country and its people, and worry about the consequences of their decisions for that reason.

If you think I am being naive, there's another reason why I think the success of the country is important to even the richest politician, which is that they have sufficiently large egos to want to be judged kindly by history; to leave a legacy.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Iain Richards — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:34:31 GMT

It's easy for the likes of Boris to be optimistic, he's wealthy enough to cope with any adverse impact of no trade deals, higher export tariffs and higher prices due to extra border checks. Even if he's the shortest PM in history, or resigns over a scandal, he'll still be loaded with after dinner speeches and pifflewaffle in the Telegraph. As will the Farage and many others involved in pushing Brexit. Even me, I'll be OK as I'm well off by many standards, so yes, it might be tough for a while, but it will be OK. Unless your Nissan job goes because of the higher price of selling into Europe, unless your farm goes under because of the higher tariff on produce and the undercutting of cheap meat with lower welfare standards (welfare doesn't count as a barrier under WTO, but does into EU).

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Arlo Guthrie — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:06:45 GMT

[quote user="Francisco Gomez"]I don't do optimism.[/quote]

I'm an inveterate optimist, which is probably why Boris appeals!

[quote user="bob lehner"]And it seems the general view from the 'Great and the Good,' who should know about these things, is that he torpedoed the UK Ambassador in a pretty shoddy way.[/quote]

I dunno. Of course, a lot of me has been thinking 'How DARE you, Trump' and wishing that Boris had given the ambassador his support.

Then again, it is very obvious that Kim Darroch's position was already untenable. He was already holed below the waterline, so nothing Boris could say would have either saved him or caused him to resign. That being the case, it might yet prove to have been the strategically better move not to say anything, thereby keeping the door open to the US.

I also sniff that a lot of people are trying to make political capital out of it all. Let's face it, if anything is wrong at the moment, it is all Boris's fault. I gather there was traffic on the M25 yesterday. Must have been Boris.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

bob lehner — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:56:26 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Who watched Johnson V Hunt last night?

I missed the first 20 minutes or so, but the rest convinced me that Boris is the man for the job.

[/quote]

Just the opposite - I thought he was on his usual evasive, blustering, huffing and puffing form and no way fit for the job....

And it seems the general view from the 'Great and the Good,' who should know about these things, is that he torpedoed the UK Ambassador in a pretty shoddy way.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Bob Russell — Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:23:11 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Ultimately there is going to be a general election anyway and I suspect it will be just as divisive and indecisive as the situation we are in at the moment.

Do we really want the likes of the Brexit Party holding the balance of power?

[/quote]

Britain will get the government it deserves, I'm sure

I cannot support Labour or the Tories, that only leaves the Lib Dems who stand for enough of what I believe in, to make them worth voting for.

I rather doubt, however, that they will make much difference

[/quote]

Yes, we got Ms May's disaster government thanks to an election.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Francisco Gomez — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 21:37:08 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

He's right, we've had a singularly defeatist attitude to these negotiations; a lack of confidence which has led to us

[/quote]

I'm a vet. I don't do optimism. Optimism makes things happen that I can't fix. For example: patient's death.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Stephen Courtney — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 20:30:33 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]

Ultimately there is going to be a general election anyway and I suspect it will be just as divisive and indecisive as the situation we are in at the moment.

Do we really want the likes of the Brexit Party holding the balance of power?

[/quote]

Britain will get the government it deserves, I'm sure

I cannot support Labour or the Tories, that only leaves the Lib Dems who stand for enough of what I believe in, to make them worth voting for.

I rather doubt, however, that they will make much difference

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Bob Russell — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 14:53:14 GMT

Ultimately there is going to be a general election anyway and I suspect it will be just as divisive and indecisive as the situation we are in at the moment.

Do we really want the likes of the Brexit Party holding the balance of power?

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Iain Richards — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:41:52 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]By the way, Iain Richards, another reason to add to my list of benefits of Brexit, is not becoming part of the federalist master plan.[/quote]

Me neither. If it exists! OK, the concept of the EU, free trade, co-operation etc, should be greater than attempts at federalism. Arguing against it from within is surely more effective than watching it happen from the outside.

Re the leadership debate, it's irrelevant to me as it will be decided by a group who are mostly massively out of step with the world, let alone the country (same as Labour). If Boris gets it, I'll be amazed if there is no election and a hung parliament.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Arlo Guthrie — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 10:06:04 GMT

Who watched Johnson V Hunt last night?

I missed the first 20 minutes or so, but the rest convinced me that Boris is the man for the job.

He's right, we've had a singularly defeatist attitude to these negotiations; a lack of confidence which has led to us showing our cards too early (for example, that we are not prepared to have a no-deal Brexit).

What we need, at this time, is an upbeat, confident, robust leader who will make things happen, not, as I read in the comments section of a newspaper just now: "May in trousers".

By the way, Iain Richards, another reason to add to my list of benefits of Brexit, is not becoming part of the federalist master plan.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Iain Richards — Mon, 08 Jul 2019 07:51:33 GMT

Fair comment Roger.

Musing on the "retake control" aspects and the concerns about unelected officials, there were two articles this weekend on the "advisors" for Messrs Johnson and Corbyn. Unelected, pretty well untouchable unless the advisees sack them. Think of the pickle the advisors for Mrs May created regarding the last election. Why do they need a "team" of advisors when there is a whole party plus civil servant there.

RE: Just remind me - Brexit

Roger Wilkinson — Sat, 06 Jul 2019 19:19:16 GMT

I'll dip my toe in the water cautiously. It's good to see some real engagement on the issue occasionally.

I take on board the argument for enhanced democratic representation on a national level. Although I'd argue that UK government still has control over the vast majority of important issues. It's rare that anyone can give me a concrete example of EU regulation which has directly and adversely affected them in real life. I think the main pro-leave motivation for most people is emotional. Depends on your world outlook and how you identify. Really for vast majority of people the time for rational argument is way past. And who am I to argue with anyone else's world view!

I thought Rory Stewart was really good on the subject of a second referendum. However much some of us want to remain, it's just all too easy to imagine how divisive the process will be. I need to recover contact with my parents at some point! He was in favour of looking at options like an assembly to look at the issue. Maybe we have to leave in the meantime.

In bigger picture, the pro-EU factors which strike me as important are:

1: they are our only hope to counter the pervasive corrupting power of the super-rich and big business, financialisation of our economies, control of the media by the powerful. We are currently losing this battle. Barring violent revolution or war we are heading for greater and greater concentration of wealth and power. It's frightening. 99% of the wealth in Russia is owned by 1% of the population. I'm pretty sure a lot of very rich and powerful people just hate the possibility that the EU might intervene in the interests of the populus as a whole. National governments are easier to buy.

2: the environment, population, pollution, food. We need to do something about this lot rather than quarrel about anthems and flags. And it's going to take cooperation.

That's my two penn'orth. Off to walk dogs.