Professional options help

RE: Professional options help

Nicola Cole — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 20:23:43 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Which is why medical consultants come up through the ranks.......

[/quote]

RE: Professional options help

Anthony Todd — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 18:30:36 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"] Far better to have no-one in the building[/quote]

Et seq and the rest but I don't know the latin!

To flog the horse again it is the difference between what the vet knows and what the vet can do.

The know part is easy; A level grades thence a degree but the "do" bit is the vital part.

The differences, for all sorts of non-academic reasons, are vast and are only measured, and very obvious, in the coal-face of actual practice.

Which is why medical consultants come up through the ranks.......

RE: Professional options help

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:51:15 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Better than not having anyone in the building![/quote]

Well... I once had to send a locum away the very morning after he had arrived. Far better to have no-one in the building than to have that feller in it.

RE: Professional options help

Sarah Keir — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 15:26:43 GMT

Currently the recruitment issues are throughout the veterinary profession; vets and nurses, locums and permanent.

Many agencies use 'skills matrix' i.e. lists of procedures that vet ticks they can't do or can do to what level. I have always wondered about who these are assessed as the vet themselves ticks the box and the agency has the option to massage the matrix to get someone a post.

RE: Professional options help

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 12:17:59 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]Where would you get them from? Cause even where the shortage was not that bed the agencies and many practices would accept anyone with a pulse. [/quote]

Laughed out loud. Really? I thought the shortage was of permanent staff, not so much with locums. I guess if that is the state of play right now, and practices really do want any locum with a pulse, then the idea doesn't have an awful lot of legs, at least till the shortage goes.

RE: Professional options help

Dinu Catilina — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 12:05:29 GMT

Where would you get them from? Cause even where the shortage was not that bad the agencies and many practices would accept anyone with a pulse. Better than not having anyone in the building!

RE: Professional options help

Arlo Guthrie — Mon, 10 Jun 2019 11:05:17 GMT

Not getting many votes (any in fact!) for my idea of accredited veterinary locums. Neil Wheadon, what do you think? Anyone else?

RE: Professional options help

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 13:29:32 GMT

[quote user="Nicola M"]

Is there a ‘I like the idea but don’t think there’s mileage’ button?!

In principal I think it’s a good idea.

However, it would only be catching a small subset of locums and don’t think that it would help the problem.

I would think that the locums that use this forum are likely (more likely?) to be competent anyway.[/quote]

Nicola Cole - By 'users of this forum' do you mean just those who post in the forum section of vetsurgeon? If my objective was that this was only used by active forum users, then yes, I would agree, it would be a non starter, as only a small subset.

But a great many more members use VetSurgeon for other purposes, for example the job section, and the news section and the CPD section, without visiting the forums. I would be targeting all of them too.

But if I set this up, I would want to go far further than that, and would market it to all locums, not just VS members.

RE: Professional options help

Dinu Catilina — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 13:26:50 GMT

A tenner!

RE: Professional options help

Mark Hedberg — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 12:20:53 GMT

[quote user="Dinu Catilina"]

That's my second bet this week, I might have a gambling problem

[/quote]

Want to bet on that? :)

RE: Professional options help

Nicola Cole — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 12:15:28 GMT

P.s. Sorry for the lack of paragraphs-on a phone...a comment for the mobile update post

RE: Professional options help

Nicola Cole — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 11:59:01 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

If anyone things there is mileage in this, press the 'agree' or 'like' button, and I will add it to the list of choices you will all be given when we decide which to prioritise after the site upgrade.

[/quote]

Is there a ‘I like the idea but don’t think there’s mileage’ button?!

In principal I think it’s a good idea.

However, it would only be catching a small subset of locums and don’t think that it would help the problem.

I would think that the locums that use this forum are likely (more likely?) to be competent anyway. Obviously I’m generalising, but if you’re using a clinical forum for case discussions, advice, tips etc or giving advice it suggests you know what you’re talking about or are invested in improving your handling of difficult cases etc. which would suggest a responsible approach to locumming.

Im not for a second saying that there aren’t excellent locums out there that don’t use the forum-there will be lots. But I do think that the poorer locums/those with less experience/those being churned out by the locum agencies are less likely to be on this forum. And that’s the area that needs more regulation.

Just my two pence-worth...!

RE: Professional options help

Bob Russell — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 10:57:21 GMT

I will only use a locum agent if desperate.

Recently I had a chat with a local vet interested in a job only to find it was not the vet I was speaking to. I asked the vet to send a CV only to find an agency was involved.

Another agency tried to push a candidate that they had found a job for a few months previously. At least two bites at the cherry!

It is a shame that reliable agencies appear to be few and far between.

RE: Professional options help

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 10:24:07 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]Maybe this is where the pressure comes in, for if an employer is paying a recent graduate the same as an experienced locum they will expect the same clinical skills? The employer deserves what they pay for don't they?[/quote]

I think that's a really good point. Not just stressful for an unconfident locum going into it all without enough skills or experience, but rather unfair on the employer too.

[quote user="Alistair Graham-Evans"]Maybe locum agencies could have some type of assessment of locum skills - an opportunity for you Arlo?[/quote]

Fairly or unfairly, my perception is that recruitment agencies on the whole (and there are exceptions), try to do as little as they can for as much as they can! Heard so many anecdotal stories of them sending inappropriate candidates, which makes me wonder what on earth they were doing for the (not inconsiderable) fee.

I proposed an idea a while ago, when we were building VetSurgeon Profiles. The idea was to allow employers to endorse/review locums, and the endorsements would then appear on their profiles.

That idea fell flat amongst the locums I spoke with, who really didn't like the idea of being reviewed.

But I wonder ...

How about this alternative?

A) We draw up a list of skills / abilities that employers want in a locum.

B) We then build a new system into VetSurgeon.org, whereby locums can invite practices they have worked for to certify they were competent / confident in those areas. It's not a review. It's just a confirmation that 'Yes, this person worked for us and we found they could perform 'x' task competently and confidently.'

C) We could make the system require certification from 2 or 3 practices before a certification appeared on their profile.

D) The system would not offer any opportunity for employers to say 'this person was just A - MAZING' (for example) - rather it is just to certify the areas where they are competent.

E) In addition, we would add the ability for locums to make their VetSurgeon profile visible to non members (this is something I have been toying with the idea of for referral practitioners anyway).

F) Finally, it would tie in with the existing locum search map.

Perhaps VetSurgeon.org could charge locums £50 per annum for using the certification system and providing the platform to advertise their certification / CV via a public VS profile and on the locum map.

RE: Professional options help

Alistair Graham-Evans — Fri, 07 Jun 2019 02:15:47 GMT

I think the environment in which we work shapes who we become professionally and unfortunately there is lack of support and structure to post grad training.

I was fortunate - my first job was a locum, but in an advanced progressive large hospital (Grove Lodge 30 years ago Stephen !) and in that first 6 months I was given the opportunity to do a huge range of procedures with back up from experienced vets (thanks Robert! )

Mixed practice followed with reasonable back up from colleagues but stressful with cow caesars and colics with little training - I had to shoot my first 3 colics ( fortunately justified on PM at the hunt kennels!). I should probably not have been put in that situation and my early years were more stressful than they should have been.

I have always enjoyed surgery but never had a proper mentor and I cannot imagine the stress of being put in surgical situations if nervous about these procedures. My advice to new graduates is to find work in the largest busiest clinic they can find. An inexperienced locum in a one person clinic is akin to putting a GP in a hospital emergency department with no other staff and loss of memory of any internships or residency positions. I think pets and their owners deserve better and the public would be appalled if they were aware of the random nature in which vets gain experience and the range of standards and facilities in general practice.

Maybe locum agencies could have some type of assessment of locum skills - an opportunity for you Arlo?

RE: Professional options help

Chris Whipp — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 21:08:16 GMT

[quote user="Lucy Fleming"] I think how a failure/ mistake etc is dealt with by senior colleagues, particularly early in your career, is really important. Being thrown back in get get on with it is unlikely to be satisfactory, but neither is wrapping in cotton wool and either encouraging or allowing them to avoid the situations they are uncomfortable with[/quote]

I think the need is to support the individual in their development but leave the responsibility with them. It is a fine balance and one, I fear, we frequently don't get right. It is only relatively recently that there has been any training or support for the supporter in what can be a very counterintuitive role.

RE: Professional options help

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 20:32:12 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]

Would, for example, it make sense for there to be a minimum level of skills required before you can practise as a locum? Either by regulation or by accreditation.

Or could inexperienced or unconfident locums be supported in some other way?

Neil Wheadon ?

[/quote]

I'll throw this in. I recently found out that a vet qualified 3 years was being paid more than I was at the same practice as a locum, their asking rate was £300/day. (I'm 27 years and can handle pretty much anything) If you employ a vet there is a pay differential between a newer graduate and an experienced graduate, yet this differential doesn't seem to exist when you're a locum. With 15% of vets apparently locumming is it any wonder that new graduates are looking at becoming a locum?

Maybe this is where the pressure comes in, for if an employer is paying a recent graduate the same as an experienced locum they will expect the same clinical skills? The employer deserves what they pay for don't they?

Neil

RE: Professional options help

Gillian Mostyn — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 19:31:17 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]At the moment, in vet. science, the book-learner is a shoo-in![/quote]

So not true. Yes, you need the results. But those alone are not sufficient.

RE: Professional options help

Anthony Todd — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 18:40:49 GMT

I think it comes back to undergraduate selection!

To take a [silly] example: eg:

Should the English cricket test team be selected by the player who can name, and demonstrate, a prescribed number of off-side recognised strokes that can be made?

Or should the player be selected by his first class average?

At the moment, in vet. science, the book-learner is a shoo-in!

But vet. practice is mainly that; "practice"!

RE: Professional options help

vs0u — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 18:38:52 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]No one should locum who can't do emergency surgery. [/quote]

It's quite common to be asked to tick a list of procedures that I'm happy with, after accepting a locum position. The list usually includes pretty basic stuff like cat spay, bitch spay, which implies there are plenty of locums out there who don't do these ops. People are desperate for locums though and it's unusual enough to get a c section in most practices that I doubt it would be a major problem as long as they were ok with consulting.

Whilst I agree that locuming is not going to improve someone's confidence, a limitation in skills is not necessarily an issue, as long as they communicate this in advance and charge appropriately.

A lot of the contributers on here are practice owners - and therefore probably have little idea of the variety of practices out there - 6 months of locuming would really open your eyes I think! There are places where none of the permanent staff do bitch spays. That's if they even have permanent staff.

RE: Professional options help

Lucy Fleming — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 17:01:28 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]Whilst that is true, some "bad experiences" are inevitable in our careers and we need to develop the tools, as professionals, to deal with that. If you really can't cope with any failure and take everything so personally then maybe this isn't the career for you.[/quote]

Yes and no. I absolutely agree that developing a degree of resilience is important for a long career! But I think how a failure/ mistake etc is dealt with by senior colleagues, particularly early in your career, is really important. Being thrown back in get get on with it is unlikely to be satisfactory, but neither is wrapping in cotton wool and either encouraging or allowing them to avoid the situations they are uncomfortable with

RE: Professional options help

bob lehner — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 16:37:57 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Two or three different ways of skinning the cat.[/quote]

That, I believe, is a day-one skill?

RE: Professional options help

Thomas Johnson — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 16:13:08 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]In human medicine I believe you have to be at consultant level before you can do private work - can anyone confirm/deny? That's 8-10 years qualified. Not sure how you would regulate it in vet medicine?[/quote]

I thought something similar, but that's not the situation we're in though as we're all in private work. As far as I am aware within the NHS a doctor can locum at the level they are qualified to, so a resident can locum in an resident position for example. The problem we have as vets is that we don't have this structure, and that has many advantages, but in this area it can lead to problems with assessing the suitability of a locum for a position.

RE: Professional options help

Michael Woodhouse — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 15:40:34 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Would, for example, it make sense for there to be a minimum level of skills required before you can practise as a locum?[/quote]-

In human medicine I believe you have to be at consultant level before you can do private work - can anyone confirm/deny? That's 8-10 years qualified. Not sure how you would regulate it in vet medicine?

Completed PDP too small a step?

RE: Professional options help

Julian Earl — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 15:35:09 GMT

[quote user="Stephen Courtney"]I think it has a lot to do with the higher wage and the flexibility to take time off. Many vets now seem to feel the job is toxic, perhaps this is why so many stop practising? the problem is it means you don't learn how to be an all round GP, and this means stress, anxiety, and dare I say it, less job satisfaction.[/quote]

Nail and head Stephen. I have not been a locum but have employed them plus others who considered it as a get-out option for the overwhelming time factor of working in a practice, especially one doing its own OOH-work. I am convinced that it is not salaries, and maybe not always the case-difficulties that pose the biggest threat to us young vets [ but the lack of time that we can get away from those pressures. Being called out is not necessarily stressful, it is the incessant waiting for the phone to ring to disturb what one otherwise might be doing.

Like you commented Stephen, having worked at a vet's in Leeds for six years pre-university I thought that I knew what the job really entailed, but the realities were different in many ways!