Vets4Pets Closures

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Arlo Guthrie — Tue, 28 May 2019 08:57:12 GMT

Been a while since I had to delete posts, but George Cooper, that pop at grumpyoldman's writing style didn't really add anything to the discussion, and grumpyoldman, that word isn't really suitable for a professional forum and I also think you could have made your point just as robustly to Judith Archbold without belittling.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Anthony Todd — Sat, 25 May 2019 11:53:05 GMT

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]Any practice is as good as it’s team.[/quote]

So true, and probably the only truth, although if the vet is "good" in the broadest sense, be assured that it can overcome front-of-house deficiencies and other deficiencies as I know personally.

One of the most popular and competent vets I had [FP] worked in a decrepid building with an acrow holding up the ceiling at the foot of the consult table but her appointments kept going up!

"Financial", as a reason for the ultimate action, is not really the "reason"; just the result of all sorts of actions, none of them need result in suicide, and almost always they can be dealt with.

So I still say, if you have the will "Go for it", but start small and develop. Refer the infrequent [relatively] special exams and referrals until you have the numbers to make them viable.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Anthony Dennison — Sat, 25 May 2019 07:56:45 GMT

[quote user="Minnie"]I used to work in a V4P practice and it was very common for clients to use us for routine stuff like vaccines but anything requiring long term medication the clients often went elsewhere because of the prices.[/quote]

About 8/9 years ago we acquired a 3 branch practice - just before the owner sold up he introduced a vacc4life offer in all the branches (I suspect just to get an extra bit of cash then deny it to our practice owner). We honour it still (though don't start new ones) - if they go overdue and need a restart we charge a normal booster price then back on it. Loads of people just use those branches for it and go elsewhere for treatment. When we got acquired by IVC it's still being honoured.

[quote user="Judith Archbold"]Any practice is as good as it’s team. I don’t like the vibe of this thread at all but I appreciate certain members expressing sensible opinions.[/quote]

I agree Judith - V4P all look very similar due to the decor/layout and uniform but there are some very good practices and some very bad ones too.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Judith Archbold — Fri, 24 May 2019 21:15:19 GMT

I think it is very wrong of certain vets to slag off all Vets4Pets practices. I was going to keep my mouth shut on this thread ( Davis Mills would have been pleased ..,) but I can’t stand by as a Vets4Pets JVP myself and let my practice be “belittled by association “.

I don’t turn a Vacc4Life client away if they have been to another practice. I think the Vacc4Life thing is really annoying but I find our client retention for these folk is good.

I do most of our orthopaedics in-house, along with various advanced soft tissue procedures.

Any practice is as good as it’s team. I don’t like the vibe of this thread at all but I appreciate certain members expressing sensible opinions.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

grumpyoldman — Fri, 24 May 2019 19:04:20 GMT

They do use the vac4life thing to enforce some local negative client binding ,but a lot jump ship anyway. I think its pretty counter productive in general as irritated smarter clients just tell their friends their dog wanted a CT etc and V4P tried to send them to timbuktu when there was one 4 miles away. Its also a bit grim when they start ringing around to find someone who can do a TECA or a TPLO and V4P have said no one else can do it other than their pet "rent a guru" who's in next month or their pet referral centre, then start dissing other local practices because they don't want to loose a client. It all gets a bit frantic and frankly rather "bitchy" desperate and unprofessional. We stopped trying to work with or get on with them at any level years ago.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Anthony Todd — Fri, 24 May 2019 18:39:34 GMT

[quote user="Niall Taylor"]

[quote user="Wren"]One word. Clients.[/quote]

Another word. Expectations.

Niall

[/quote]

I've quoted this before but: Many years ago [can I TLA to MYA ?!] a senior member of the profession told me he had seen a very strange eye condition, serious, so he said he wanted to refer it...

"Don't you know?" was the reply obviously expecting that, as a vet, there was nothing "a vet" didn't know!

Now, and rightly so, there is an enormous advance in vet. knowledge but the clients now expect that referral is the norm and that vets are not all-knowing and omnipotent.

This must reduce the "stress" of practice??

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Minnie — Fri, 24 May 2019 14:37:21 GMT

This has been happening for a couple of years. We have clients that formerly went to V4P and they were told if they requested their notes to be sent to another practice their vac4life policy would no longer be valid as they were no longer a client. I used to work in a V4P practice and it was very common for clients to use us for routine stuff like vaccines but anything requiring long term medication the clients often went elsewhere because of the prices.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Peter Faulkner — Fri, 24 May 2019 13:41:13 GMT

Copy and paste from trustpilot website (hope it doesn't break any rules) ...

Emily Turner

8 reviews

19 Dec 2018

Vac for life..what a joke!

I purchased vac4life last year. I booked an appointment today for booster injections. I was asked if my dog had been to another vets, I told them I had to take her as an emergency after she ripped her dew claw and it wouldn't stop bleeding. They then confirmed this with my local vets who also mentioned I have 3 cats who go to them. Because of this, my vac4life is invalid apparently! I didn't buy it for the cats! They go to this other vets due to one of them having a complicated medical condition. I am now £99 out of pocket for absolutely no reason! I have checked the terms and conditions and they do not say anything about taking other pets elsewhere! Joke of a company..couldn't care less about the animals it's all about the money.

I didn't know this was one of the terms of service (or is it use) for the vac4life. Seems a bit unfair.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Niall Taylor — Thu, 23 May 2019 19:24:22 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]One word. Clients.[/quote]

Another word. Expectations.

Niall

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Beats — Wed, 22 May 2019 20:41:05 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]I type with an interest and knowledge here as I do a lot of work for Vets4pets and Companion Care. They are in essence a franchise[/quote]

I'm outside my field of knowledge, but if the purpose of a franchise is not principally to pay for a good household name to put above one's door, then what is it?

https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/www.vets4pets.com

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Neil Wheadon — Wed, 22 May 2019 11:36:48 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]They could well argue that they have a contractual arrangement in place for the pet to be vaccinated every year, for which they paid the initially agreed sum (Actual amount isn't relevant). If there isn't another V4P or CC within a reasonable distance, they could argue a breach of contract, and seek a return of their money plus compensation for what the vaccinations of the pet's remaining life would cost ? [/quote]

I feel you're being overly worried about this. Clients understand with these plans that they are transferable. There are also independent practices that have offered lifetime vaccination deals.

I type with an interest and knowledge here as I do a lot of work for Vets4pets and Companion Care. They are in essence a franchise and they are run with the stamp of the individual JVP on the place. I read a lot in this forum about restrictions of prescribing and ways of doing things that must be done, but it's not my experience. Consultation fees vary between surgeries, as do clinical methods. Some do a lot of vaccines, some operate on everything, it is the JVP that decides and drives it, though I will admit that I don't see the behind the scenes pressures. The fact that Vac4life can be opted out of now shows that head office are listening and evolving.

The closures are tragic, especially for the lay staff, but the decision by head office to be pro-active is to be applauded in many many cases (not all admittedly) and personally I look on the company in a better light now that they have grasped the nettle.

Neil

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Clive Ansell — Wed, 22 May 2019 11:06:30 GMT

[quote user="Neil Wheadon"]If a client doesn't wish to travel to another surgery the benefit is lost, but at £99 or £49 at special offer price, I don't feel they have a grumble do they?[/quote]

Personally, I wouldn't be overly bothered, but a particularly awkward or litigious client may be?

They could well argue that they have a contractual arrangement in place for the pet to be vaccinated every year, for which they paid the initially agreed sum (Actual amount isn't relevant). If there isn't another V4P or CC within a reasonable distance, they could argue a breach of contract, and seek a return of their money plus compensation for what the vaccinations of the pet's remaining life would cost ?

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Neil Wheadon — Tue, 21 May 2019 22:30:38 GMT

[quote user="Clive Ansell"]Does anyone know what happens with clients that have signed up for vaccine for life, or care plan deals; particularly if there is not another V4P or CC nearby, or if the client chooses not to travel elsewhere?[/quote]

Both will be honored when a client moves to another practice within the group.

They are fundamentally different products.

Complete Care has a core value of annual vaccination inc Kennel Cough and parasite prevention, other benefits apply. It is paid by a rolling direct debit and can be cancelled at any time

Vac4Life can be transferred between surgeries, where the initial cost is credited to the practice from which it was bought. If a client doesn't wish to travel to another surgery the benefit is lost, but at £99 or £49 at special offer price, I don't feel they have a grumble do they?

Neil

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Clive Ansell — Tue, 21 May 2019 18:51:05 GMT

Does anyone know what happens with clients that have signed up for vaccine for life, or care plan deals; particularly if there is not another V4P or CC nearby, or if the client chooses not to travel elsewhere?

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Cool — Tue, 21 May 2019 17:20:00 GMT

I am of the understanding that PAH has 471 practices and of this 25 are closing. This is about 5.3% of the total number of practices they have. Is this number that significant economically to PAH? Of course to the vets and staff affected it is and I sincerely sympathise. However, what does this say about the economic state of the veterinary services industry? I am sure that they are also buying back about 55 practices from JVPs. Is this in addition to the 25 being closed? If so this suggests that about 80 practices are not performing as they would like. This constitutes about 17% of the whole lot. This i will consider economically significant. What do you all think?

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 21 May 2019 13:15:06 GMT

Probably a good time to remember that help is always out there, whatever the situation.

https://www.vetlife.org.uk/how-we-help/vetlife-helpline/

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

charlievelyn — Tue, 21 May 2019 12:56:50 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]You are always going to find examples of people doing silly things[/quote]

I find this a highly demeaning way to refer to suicide. It represents terrible individual struggle and and is not something that should be dismissed as a "silly thing". There are many people in this forum that will have been affected by suicide, be that personally or professionally. It should be discussed with respect and empathy, bearing in mind others' experiences, at least in a public forum.

If of course you weren't referring to that, I do apologise. I just struggled to see an alternative interpretation and felt the need to speak up and represent those affected. Please do correct me if so.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Eamon McAllister — Tue, 21 May 2019 12:41:36 GMT

[quote user="Wren"]

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]What has changed and why are people less happy and more stressed? Seriously.[/quote]

One word. Clients.

[/quote] BITD when I owned and ran two practices I can honestly say that I was never happy ever though there were no financial problems. The roller coaster of emotions, the constant hypervigilance, the looming spectre of the RCVS always in the back of my mind, regulations (especially the Cascade) all contributed to an enormous cognitive dissonance which caused a great deal of stress. I’m now retired and much happier ....... but with a different set of problems.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Wren — Tue, 21 May 2019 12:15:11 GMT

[quote user="Michael Woodhouse"]What has changed and why are people less happy and more stressed? Seriously.[/quote]

One word. Clients.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Bob Russell — Tue, 21 May 2019 10:58:36 GMT

Not awful just routine!

This practice does see a heck of a lot of interesting cases. More medical than surgical but then I am not an enthusiastic surgeon!!

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Michael Woodhouse — Tue, 21 May 2019 10:45:23 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

I've made it very clear, without anything remotely rose tinted. and certainly not wanting to keep it as it was.

There are massive differences, yet vets appear more unhappy.

I'm just hoping to help explain why!

[/quote]

Actually you make a very important point. You are always going to find examples of people doing silly things, and when vets have the means then they will likely do a better job of it. Lets put that aside and move on from it.

What has changed and why are people less happy and more stressed? Seriously. There is more support than ever, people are working less and earning more. Yet at the same time they are being rapidly deskilled. Honestly I think that is a major factor. The job would be pretty dull without the things that push you and make you better.

There is no way I'd be professionally satisfied being an average vet seeing basic first opinion cases and doing nothing more interesting than neutering, teeth and lump removals. Sounds truly awful.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Anthony Todd — Tue, 21 May 2019 10:25:24 GMT

I've made it very clear, without anything remotely rose tinted. and certainly not wanting to keep it as it was.

There are massive differences, yet vets appear more unhappy.

I'm just hoping to help explain why!

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Gillian Mostyn — Tue, 21 May 2019 10:22:03 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]apart from a single tragedy[/quote]

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

Employees seem to be the unhappy ones.....??

[/quote]

https://www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/health/lancaster-vet-uses-own-battle-in-fight-to-end-mental-health-stigma-1-9760915

https://www.cheshire-live.co.uk/news/chester-cheshire-news/helsby-vet-who-put-himself-5221067

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/whitstable/news/vets-suicide-by-lethal-injection-28449/

https://www.advertiserandtimes.co.uk/perfectionist-vet-took-her-own-life-with-animal-drug-inquest-told

From just from a quick google search Tony. It affects everyone. And in a thread where we are discussing people possibly losing their jobs, especially support staff, it is all too worrying.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]The major disadvantage, BITD, was a pincer-like belief by clients that you knew everything "because you're a vet" whereas today it is almost expected that anything complicated or even specialised, will be referred thus removing, to me, the most stressful part of practice.[/quote]

Actually, I find it more stressful. BITD I used to pretty much always 'have a go' - knowing that I was the owner's only real option. These days, I worry far more about my own abilities and limitations and whether I should be referring, and at what stage.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Anthony Dennison — Tue, 21 May 2019 10:10:15 GMT

Tony, please stop using the phrase 'BITD' and looking at your career with rose tinted spectacles. Veterinary practice has changed - we need to look forward for answers not back to try and keep it 'as it was'.

RE: Vets4Pets Closures

Anthony Todd — Tue, 21 May 2019 09:54:55 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]Setting up and running a practice is a high risk, high stress process. Don't kid yourself it is anything else.[/quote]

The contrary thing, on here, is that the cautionary replies on here are all, apart from a single tragedy, from vets who set up on their own and were, or are, or appear, happy and successful.

Employees seem to be the unhappy ones.....??

Of course it can be a high risk high stress process but these can be, and were, managed and how many sole-trader vets went broke, and how many do even now?

The major disadvantage, BITD, was a pincer-like belief by clients that you knew everything "because you're a vet" whereas today it is almost expected that anything complicated or even specialised, will be referred thus removing, to me, the most stressful part of practice.