Top of the gender pay gap charts

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

bevs2251 — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 02:08:13 GMT

Back to topic. I think a lot of female vets find it hard to negotiate wage/salary amounts. I know I do. I negotiated my current hourly rate, based on advertised salaries in the locum agency lists, for a "Level 4" veterinarian (top level in Australia), which are generally well above the "award" rate.

However, if another younger vet had applied that they could pay less, I'm sure he/she would have been hired instead (corporate pet shop practice) ! The award rates (recommended weekly veterinary salary for 38-40 hour week) in Australia are ludicrously low.

A lot of practices (corporate and independent) tend to base their wage offers on these award rates, which is why they don't attract experienced, hard-working vets (male or female).

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

bevs2251 — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 01:33:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]bevs2251, sorry, not meaning to have a dig, but as you and I both know, 'something happened to a friend and they think x' is the weakest of all possible evidence for anything. It's not even first hand anecdote! [/quote]

Agree - not saying I believe lack of breast feeding is the cause, or even a causative factor in the development of epilepsy, just that my friend seems to think there may be a link. I'm not convinced at all that it was the cause of her child's epilepsy (especially as he didn't develop it until he was 2 years old).

I think her theory about the gut microbiome being abnormal may have more merit. I have seen Dr Michael Moseley documentaries regarding possible links to disease, obesity etc with abnormal gut microbiome.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Anthony Todd — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 23:53:42 GMT

Deleted as repeating the obvious, and argument is labelled "turboposting".

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Anthony Todd — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 23:30:54 GMT

Deleted as only repeating the obvious.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Andreia Dias — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 21:00:47 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]So, Anthony, ideally nobody should have a salary, just commission? [/quote]

Yes, in effect, although it has a sort of "money-for-nothing" connotation.

Basically, being paid based on the good things veterinarially the vet does and not on impressions or turnover, which can be manipulated without doing or being good.

It also gives managers an irrefutable and objective way to measure veterinary performance.

[/quote]

So no salary and just commissions? I don't agree with that at all... Paying commissions only reflects productivity - but what reward do you give for time if not money? Each vet is spending the same amount of time working (assuming they have similar rotas etc). Productivity bonus are nice, but a job basically means exchanging time for money - this is the "promise" of being employed by someone else or freelancing... It's only entrepreneurs that have the "job" of putting hours into a project and reaping non-correlated amounts of money (for better and worse).

Reward productivity, agreed... I will work harder for that. But give me money for spending my time making money for someone else...

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 20:38:06 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]So, Anthony, ideally nobody should have a salary, just commission? [/quote]

Yes, in effect, although it has a sort of "money-for-nothing" connotation.

Basically, being paid based on the good things veterinarially the vet does and not on impressions or turnover, which can be manipulated without doing or being good.

It also gives managers an irrefutable and objective way to measure veterinary performance.

[/quote]

Pay people on how much they can flog. Right.

How would you apply this to receptionists, nurses, book-keepers, cleaners, managers, vice-presidents......?

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Anthony Todd — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 20:29:41 GMT

[quote user="Evelyn Barbour-Hill"]So, Anthony, ideally nobody should have a salary, just commission? [/quote]

Yes, in effect, although it has a sort of "money-for-nothing" connotation.

Basically, being paid based on the good things veterinarially the vet does and not on impressions or turnover, which can be manipulated without doing or being good.

It also gives managers an irrefutable and objective way to measure veterinary performance.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Evelyn Barbour-Hill — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 20:00:38 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Anthony Todd's point was that the objective thing is to measure financial performance.[/quote]

NO nothing to do with money, just performance of veterinarially good things, ie chipping, dentals, worming, boosters, etc.

And our best, by far, was female, and our worst, by far, was female!

The best was also phoning owners at 7.30pm too!!

[/quote]

So, Anthony, ideally nobody should have a salary, just commission?

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 18:26:09 GMT

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]Why are you so keen on innate differences Arlo[/quote]

That seems an odd choice of words. I am not 'so keen' on innate differences. I don't have any reason to favour the nature or the nurture side of the argument.

I just happen to think it is stark staringly obvious that there are large behavioural differences between the sexes, and that these differences are the consequence of BOTH societal influences AND innate physiological differences.

Thus far, those arguing for the nurture side of the debate seem to be arguing that ALL the differences between the sexes are due to societal, patriarchal influences. I find that completely implausible. There seem to be so many studies showing behavioural characteristics tied to physiology, that the idea it is all societal seems crazy to me.

[quote user="Virginia Campbell"]Is it so that if you can prove that girls fall out of the womb not wanting influential, highly paid jobs, then we can all just chill out, accept the natural order of things and stop feeling a little bit of collective guilt? [/quote]

Christ no!

As I tried to explain earlier, I believe that simply demanding or fighting for equality without recognising innate difference is doomed to failure.

Take a simplistic argument.

Say women take 2 years out to have children. That is a natural, innate difference between men and women.

Simply demanding equal pay or opportunities is doomed to failure, because you are not taking the innate difference into account.

To my mind, it would be far more effective to consider the difference and think of ways that the playing field could be levelled (such as men taking more time out to help with childcare).

And the same line of thinking follows with other innate differences between the sexes.

Is there something about female behaviour that makes women less likely to demand a pay rise, and if so, how then could we level the playing field (eg pay transparency).

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Anthony Todd — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 18:19:42 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Anthony Todd's point was that the objective thing is to measure financial performance.[/quote]

NO nothing to do with money, just performance of veterinarially good things, ie chipping, dentals, worming, boosters, etc.

And our best, by far, was female, and our worst, by far, was female!

The best was also phoning owners at 7.30pm too!!

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Virginia Campbell — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 18:02:24 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"], it is about whether there are any innate differences between the sexes which mean women are less likely to apply for, or get the plum jobs.[/quote]

Why are you so keen on innate differences Arlo, rather than societal influences from childhood onwards? Is it so that if you can prove that girls fall out of the womb not wanting influential, highly paid jobs, then we can all just chill out, accept the natural order of things and stop feeling a little bit of collective guilt?

Societal influence is a funny thing. Princess Charlotte is unlikely to be working as a lorry mechanic at the age of 18, but her great grandmother did, due to a specific set of societal conditions that existed for a brief few years nearly 80 years ago.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 17:32:49 GMT

[quote user="James Dunne"]I think Anthony has a point.[/quote] I am not actually disagreeing his point. I think we are just talking at cross purposes.

Anthony Todd's point was that the objective thing is to measure financial performance. I agree that is one measure, but I also agree with Julie Innes when she said it would be pretty depressing to just base things on that. You then make the point about weighting for other valuable characteristics, which seems to make sense to me, as a way to value two people performing the same job.

But my question is not about gender discrimination in that sense, ie what a man or woman are paid for doing the exact same job.

My question comes back to the OP

[quote user="An On MRCVS"]In an industry where most of the income generation is done by women how come most of the best paid jobs go to the male, pale and stale? [/quote]

This question is not about measuring employee performance, it is about whether there are any innate differences between the sexes which mean women are less likely to apply for, or get the plum jobs.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Anthony Todd — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 16:38:37 GMT

[quote user="James Dunne"]So while I wouldn't treat someone's turnover as black and white, it should be given considerable weighting. [/quote]

With modern PMSs you can weight various "good practices" and pay more to the vet for them and less for others, independent of fees generated.

eg, "microchipping" is a "good thing" and would warrant more than a large wodge of unnecessary antibiotics after a dental [for example, not argument]

and most vet activities can be rated thus.

But I'm sure I'm turboing again............

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

James Dunne — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 16:24:44 GMT

Hi Arlo

I think Anthony has a point. While we are not absolute about it in our own practice, there is no mystery or unfairness to using income generated [to a degree] to relate to salary. We have found consistently over many years that vets who work hard and charge well tend to have decent turnovers. And, funnily enough, it is often the case that those with the rock-bottom turnovers are often JCB merchants [Jab, Charge, 'Bye!] who do as little as possible. It is not absolute though. We give weighting to how easy someone is to get on with, how long they have been with the practice (loyalty), how good they are with customers, what their general attitude is (that it is not 'just a job') and how helpful they are to the partners and each other. practicing good medicine and charging the fees that the boss has created usually results in good profit. It doesn't work the other way around, but I have only known one vet ever out of around 90 that I've worked with, to charge unethically and make good coin from bad medicine and overtesting. So while I wouldn't treat someone's turnover as black and white, it should be given considerable weighting.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 15:36:16 GMT

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]But where is any evidence, and I mean hard evidence, not impression, feeling, prejudice, or any other intangible!!

That's the "logical starting point ie are there differences in the way they work and/or the money they earn??

My hard evidence is that there is and enormous too!

But NOT based on gender![/quote]

You've already made this point, Tony. Please, please stop repeating!

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Anthony Todd — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 15:17:09 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]I am not clouding the issue. I am taking it back to its logical starting point. To my mind, you can't possibly discuss whether there are differences in what people earn without first understanding whether there are differences in the way they behave/work.[/quote]

But where is any evidence, and I mean hard evidence, not impression, feeling, prejudice, or any other intangible!!

That's the "logical starting point ie are there differences in the way they work and/or the money they earn??

My hard evidence is that there is and enormous too!

But NOT based on gender!

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 14:49:04 GMT

[quote user="Julie Innes"]I find the idea of placing a value on an employee based on the money they bring in really depressing and simplistic.[/quote]

Me too.

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]So just measure how "good" an employee is[/quote]

You're turboing again. I got that point the first time you made it, and the third

[quote user="Anthony Todd"]clouding the issue by side-tracking into hormones. next it'll be hair length![/quote]

I am not clouding the issue. I am taking it back to its logical starting point. To my mind, you can't possibly discuss whether there are differences in what people earn without first understanding whether there are differences in the way they behave/work.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Anthony Todd — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 14:33:58 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"] Hormones have a profound impact on both male and female behaviour, which would surely impact on how good we are at doing certain things.[/quote]

So just measure how "good" an employee is and stop clouding the issue by side-tracking into hormones. next it'll be hair length!

BTW when we measured performance in a logical way the best and the worst were female......., so gender in vet. surgeons' performance is irrelevant and ridiculous if you don't measure it and just rely on "judgment" or "impressions".

Anybody else got any hard evidence at all???

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Julie Innes — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 14:31:19 GMT

I thought I remember reading something about boys having a "testosterone rush" around 3 years old (could be wrong, though, been a long time!)

I find the idea of placing a value on an employee based on the money they bring in really depressing and simplistic. One employee might sell a load of flea products and wormers, but not really engage the client, so that next time they go somewhere else. Another might spend time with client, sell no wormers etc, but make the client feel that he/ she got a good service. the second client becomes a bonded client, recommends the practice to all and sundry and ends up generating more in repeat business, although not necessarily all ascribed financially to the original vet.

I'd far rather employ the second vet. As such, I don't even ever ever look at "ATC". Don't care. just care that my clients are getting a good service and I have loyal, reliable staff. Maybe I'll go bankrupt. maybe I'm just not as ambitious/ money-orientated as some other practice owners. Is that because I am female, or because I am, well, me?

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 14:22:34 GMT

[quote user="Gillian Mostyn"]But sex hormones don't kick in till puberty, at which point the differences are already apparent.[/quote]

Rubbish!!! (Sorry Gillian)

There is a lot of research out there into the effects on maternal testosterone on unborn children, for example ...

https://www.livescience.com/24540-fetal-testosterone-boys-impulsivity.html

possible link to autism:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/12/autism-prenatal-testosterone-womb

this study links various behaviours to foetal testosterone ...

http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2005_Knickmeyer_etal_JCPP.pdf

whole load more studies here (not all relating to autism):

https://www.autismresearchcentre.com/project_15_foetaltst

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Gillian Mostyn — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:57:43 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]Hormones have a profound impact on both male and female behaviour, which would surely impact on how good we are at doing certain things.[/quote]

But sex hormones don't kick in till puberty, at which point the differences are already apparent.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Arlo Guthrie — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:51:33 GMT

[quote user="louise nixon"]But female children are encouraged to be sociable, friendly, nice, all the time.[/quote]

Erm, in my family, so were the male children! I am not sure whether there is a gender difference in the take up of computer games - certainly my daughter seems to like them. I just don't buy the idea that boys play more than girls. My daughter loves tennis and hockey and always playing in some school team or another. Sure there might be differences in the type of play, but enough to cause women in general to be less motor and spatially developed? I don't believe it!

And women having better memories? What on earth could happen as a child to cause that?

Anyway, what about all the other stuff we can't control - the effect of hormones on our brains both before and after birth? Hormones have a profound impact on both male and female behaviour, which would surely impact on how good we are at doing certain things.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

louise nixon — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:17:44 GMT

[quote user="Arlo Guthrie"]This one suggests women have better memory and social cognition skills, and men better motor and spatial skills. Can think of no obvious reason why this could be nurture, rather than nature. Was it because I played with a tonka toy when I was young, whereas my sister (if I had one) chatted to her doll? Seems unlikely to me.[/quote]

OK, I may have misunderstood you. And I haven't read the paper. But female children are encouraged to be sociable, friendly, nice, all the time. This develops social cognition, of which memory can play an important part. Male children are encouraged in physical play and computer games, developing motor and spatial skills. What you practice, becomes more developed. So yes, I feel it could very much be due to nurture.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Bob Russell — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 12:46:27 GMT

How a business monitors performance is likely to vary. As we have a small practice and very low staff turnover, we are aware of each others strengths and weaknesses and work with these or balance them out.

Other practice types will monitor all sorts of indicators (as we probably should) but I fail to see how gender comes in to this. Average transaction values, follow up consult percentages etc are gender neutral.

I do not believe people need to be treated the same but they should be treated fairly. Gender is not a factor unless someone is trying to say all male vets are lazier or all female vets are nicer and give discounts. Clearly this is nonsense.

Discrimination is as unacceptable as it is unproductive. The gender pay gap figures just don't give a good measure of discrimination.

RE: Top of the gender pay gap charts

Anthony Todd — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 11:56:35 GMT

[quote user="Bob Russell"]I don't give a monkeys what gender people are (home life excepted). I care about how they are to work with, how they do their job and how reliable etc etc.[/quote]

So it's all down to your subjective opinion then?

Obviously open to all sorts of prejudice and abuse, if not in your case then in others.

I can see opportunities for unfairness claims in all sorts of circumstances which is why we just measured and paid on output but discussed everything else.

[we had a nurse who appeared to be always, but always, busy until we watched her and realised she was actually just moving things around constantly......]